Single Pump Valveless

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:12 pm

I still don't like backflushing any filter, but other than that it looks good. The new diagrams are harder to follow, I guess because you added all the new symbols like BP and P.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:25 pm

Duly noted. I suppose the vo return could be plumbed in between the tank and filter, so there will be no potential for exploding filters.

Thanks!
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Postby Radrick » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:02 am

Burbarian wrote:I've been aiming for a design with minimum active components, in this case, only one, the primary pump. If one doesn't mind longer purge times, a single FPHE can be used. With Sanderling's purge pump idea, that would save me getting 2 FPHEs and just plumb in the spare cube pump for quick purge. Good idea! Nothing like retask-and-reuse of already available 'stuff'. :)

As always, comments and criticism gladly welcomed.


Burb, If you are incorporating the variable speed pump you could use one fphe and just kick the pump into high speed during the purge cycle. I would think that would be adequate for speeding up the purge time. Just a thought. So when can I buy one and how much?? :wink:
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby Burbarian » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:21 am

Radrick wrote:Burb, If you are incorporating the variable speed pump you could use one fphe and just kick the pump into high speed during the purge cycle.


Good idea. However, some IPs don't like high pressure or surging variable input, and may get stressed or damaged. In that scenario, I suppose a high limit pressure regulator with the bypass connected to the purge line could be used.

The Stanadyne DB2 timing advance can be adjusted based on the delta between internal transfer pump pressure and housing backpressure, so a variable pressure input or a variable pressure regulator may be used to tune the advance for vo. This would likely require a PID or microcontroller with a pressure tap to the transfer pump test port, the housing backpressure, engine rpm, throttle position and load sensor. A bit too elaborate and would likely cost considerably more than could be justified by potential gain.

Just picked up a cheap heat exchanger for testing. Pictures here:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about122-15.html
At $19 each, if it works adequately one could use them to have split independent coolant heaters for d2 and vo.

Even with a single FPHE the purge time should be about a minute or two. With two coil type heat exchangers the switch time could be reduced to seconds. Still, I'd rather take the minute and use the additional pint or two of diesel on shutdown than risk my IP with an inadequate purge. Good ideas though. Thanks.

So when can I buy one and how much??

Heheh. Thanks for the interest. However, still refining the design at this point. I would think it very premature and irresponsible to start selling something when it hasn't even been built yet, let alone tested and proven. Verging on fraud, even. If you're in the market for a kit, it would likely be best to go with the established vendors with proven systems on sale.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
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Postby Burbarian » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:41 am

Exploded view of MK1 alpha prototype of simple manifold.
Image

External dimensions and ports labels.
Image

It is 2 x 1.5 x 2 inches. About the size of a child's fist, or roughly half the height but thicker than a pack of cigarettes. It is made from machined billet aluminum. 2 allen head stainless steel bolts turns it into a single assembly. The check valves are sandwiched between the upper and lower plates. IP overflow enters from the top right and preferentially feeds into whichever fuel is currently being drawn by the pump through the two lower right fittings. Deliberately imbalanced check valves allows for intrinsic loop and purge. The single lower left fitting feeds into an FPHE. It is just as easy to make this into two independent d2/vo outputs for connecting to two heat exchangers for faster purge. The two upper left fittings connect to the pump's bidirectional in/out ports.

This MK1 simple manifold is an alpha prototype for testing the proof-of-concept only.
If successful, the MK2 beta prototype will become a direct replacement for the backplate of a small gear-pump's housing, leaving only 4 ports: vo and d2 inlet, fuel outlet to FPHE and IP overflow inlet. This will obviate the need for pump fittings and hoses, and the manifold will become integral to the pump head.
The MK3 gamma prototype will directly integrate the temperature and pressure sensors, and pump motor controller for automated switch and purge and possibly pressure modulated timing advance in vo mode. This will remove the need for additional sensor fittings and most external wiring. It would also be possible to integrate the automatic air bleed valve at this point and allow for automatic priming.

With space being a premium, I figure a small tightly integrated system with minimum plumbing and minimum active components would be useful for quick and easy conversions.

If it pans out, I may even integrate the FPHE and coolant heated fuel filter as a single unit sharing a unified cascaded low restriction coolant flow, with the manifold and pump assembly comprising the filter base. Perhaps a 4 x 6 x 10 package. This will get rid of a bunch more hoses and fittings.

Additional notes:
The prototype manifold could have been reduced to 1 inch in height, but would not leave enough space to attach fittings.
The check valves could have been tappets, but hardened alloy steel balls seal better, wear longer, and are cheap and easy for anybody to replace.
Hardened steel washers are used as valve seats instead of relying on the softer aluminum, and also makes it repair-friendly.
I wanted snap action check valves, and it occurred to me that there was a way to get this without resorting to piston/plunger style checks: Magnetize the valve seat washers, or have them backed by NIB ring magnets and kept in place with a circlip or retaining ring in a groove. This will allow snap action and fast reaction positive seating with a simple ball check.
Aluminum was chosen as I have a large pile of scrap aluminum available.
For proof-of-concept testing I'll just use the 12v HF vane pump.
If successful, then the next step is to find a suitable small and CHEAP miniature gear pump.

As always, comments and criticism gladly welcomed.
Last edited by Burbarian on Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
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Location: Vermont

Postby BMW Fan » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:47 pm

Very nice job.

I hope you get enough time for a road test :wink:
and will show your manifold
at our GET TOGETHER ON VEGGIE, May 31, 2008

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Postby SunWizard » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:55 pm

Very nice exploded drawings, it almost looks like you built one and made pics.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Postby Burbarian » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:05 am

Thanks. Lets hope it goes beyond pretty pictures. Should have the bits from McMaster and HF in a week or so.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
Burbarian
 
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Location: Vermont

Postby canolafunola » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:28 am

Nice drawings! What were they drawn with? For a prototype, I'd suggest using acrylic block so you can what's going on. Using a ring magnet as a check valve seat is an interesting idea. How strong are NIB magnets?
93 Gulfstream RV w Cummins 5.9 diesel pusher
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Postby Burbarian » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:08 pm

I use an older version of Rhino and Blender.
Good idea with using a transparent prototype. I'd want to use polycarbonate though. More rigid, higher temperature range, and compatible with diesel. Still, I'd not want to take either on a test drive. For that the only plastics I'd consider would be acetal or nylon.
NIB (Neodymium/Iron/Boron) magnets come in various grades or powers. The highest power magnets are more susceptible to curie point loss though. As low as 80C. Lower power magnets lose some of their power but are good to 230C.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
Burbarian
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: Vermont

Postby Burbarian » Tue May 13, 2008 4:07 am

Update: Was approached with an interesting offer. After satisfactory testing, it looks like I've been lured out of retirement. No further updates forthcoming for this project.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
Burbarian
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: Vermont

Postby BMW Fan » Tue May 13, 2008 4:14 am

UUUHHHH, Congratulations !

Does it also indicate you are not showing up in Nova Scotia ? :(

" GET TOGETHER ON VEGGIE "

May 31, 2008

Klaus

http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby Burbarian » Tue May 13, 2008 4:58 pm

Will definitely try to be there. Not really certain though, as unexpected circumstances have taken over a large fraction of my available time. Thanks.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
Burbarian
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: Vermont

Manifold design similarity...

Postby HoldOnTight » Tue May 20, 2008 9:24 pm

I've often thought that the kind of manifold used to dispense soda and tea at bars is essentially the kind of manifold represented below. They use valves that could be controlled with solenoids. The flow of the fluids being controlled with check valves is very similar to the control of electron flow in digital circuits, known as diode logic. Check valves are a simpler approach. I'm jealous that I didn't think of something like this first! :cry:

Actually, I think this is a great idea that will help the environment. :)

HoldOnTight

Burbarian wrote:Exploded view of MK1 alpha prototype of simple manifold.
Image

External dimensions and ports labels.
Image

It is 2 x 1.5 x 2 inches. About the size of a child's fist, or roughly half the height but thicker than a pack of cigarettes. It is made from machined billet aluminum. 2 allen head stainless steel bolts turns it into a single assembly.
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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