People who damaged their engines and how?

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby SkySkiJason » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:19 pm

Richard,

I don't think there is a good indication until its too late. IIRC, the buzz test only checks the electronic portion of our injectors (HPO poppet valve) and I don't remember how the contribution test works...

The injector o-rings are enough to cause a SERIOUS problem. This is likely additional fuel - not atomised - dumping into the combustion chamber all the time. On diesel, this would cause wet stacking, rinsing the cylinder wals with diesel, leading to increased cylinder/ring wear and reducing the lubricity of the engine oil. It seems likely carbon build up is inevitable as well, since this now rich mixture is not burning completely.

Bad o-rings on VO is rapid death by coking and blow-by into the crankcase seals the deal w/polymerized engine oil/VO blend. Combined with inadequate heating of VO, lack of sufficient purge and diesel contamination - not good.

Did VO do this damage? Maybe not by itself, but it very likely accelerated the drama.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby hheynow » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:23 pm

SunWizard wrote:I don't know what a buzz and contribution test is?


They are two separate tests preformed by a scanner

The contribution test tests the cylinders
The buzz test tests the injectors

http://www.itpdiesel.com/store.php?diags=1
http://www.dieseltools.net/2.html
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:29 am

Here is another recent one, blown newly rebuilt bosch VE rotary IP with only 13k VO miles on it:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 9981089332

Looks like a case of running very cold VO through it from his shared stock filter and shearing the shaft.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:41 am

Here is a fun site, its in german so this link is the translation. It lists details of about 20 people who damaged their IPs and how. Nice name: pumpenfriedhof! (I don't know German, but I think it means Cemetery of pumps :) )

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... en&ie=UTF8

Click on the nice little gravestone pics and each one leads you to their entire forum threads with lots of details of each failure. Notice the 1 common thing, they are all rotary IP, I didn't find any inline IP in there.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby Radrick » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:53 am

SunWizard wrote:Another one: VO coked up my intake ports and valves:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205591

This was on a VW TDI and the problem occurs frequently even on D2 but appears worse on veg.


FYI My Dad owns a VW TDI and is an experienced diesel owner. He has had it for three years and has had to have the intake manifold removed and cleaned three times and had the intake ports and valves done once. It is an newer (not sure of the year) car and runs really good, the engine is in great shape. The mechanics at the dealer tell him that this is normal. He only runns diesel from stations that have quality fuel and move allot of it.
Just some personal experience that I thought might be interesting.
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:12 am

Radrick wrote:...FYI My Dad owns a VW TDI and is an experienced diesel owner. He has had it for three years and has had to have the intake manifold removed and cleaned three times and had the intake ports and valves done once. It is an newer (not sure of the year) car...
Interesting. Could you please check on the year. I have an 03 myself.

Had he mentioned to you a symptom that prompted him to know it was time to clean out the manifolds etc.
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Postby Radrick » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:29 am

coachgeo wrote:
Radrick wrote:...FYI My Dad owns a VW TDI and is an experienced diesel owner. He has had it for three years and has had to have the intake manifold removed and cleaned three times and had the intake ports and valves done once. It is an newer (not sure of the year) car...
Interesting. Could you please check on the year. I have an 03 myself.

Had he mentioned to you a symptom that prompted him to know it was time to clean out the manifolds etc.


He is out of town right now but next time I talk to him I will ask. Might be a few days.
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:37 am

coachgeo wrote:Had he mentioned to you a symptom that prompted him to know it was time to clean out the manifolds etc.

The symptoms mentioned by many on the TDI site are: lower power, higher smoke than usual. And they say the EGR delete mod is very useful to prevent the problem.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:10 pm

Another expensive damaged VO 2003 Greasecar Jetta TDI at only 74k miles:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205229

Analysis and long forum discussion in progress... It appears he didn't dewater his VO properly or do HPT.

Several more people with damaged TDI running on VO are chiming in that thread.

I am not speculating on the cause of the damage since the engine hasn't been examined yet, but there sure are a lot of damaged TDI's that were running VO lately.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:02 pm

Another TDI, bought brand new 2005 Passat, Plantdrive installed kit, cared for carefully it appears, 2-4k mile synthetic oil changes, still had a huge list of problems, documented in a very detailed blog at:
http://getoffoil.blogspot.com/

Problems started at 17k miles, and a long list of expensive repairs. Carbon build up at 20k reported by mechanic to equal most TDI engines at 150k. Engine destroyed at 30k, new engine bought. OUCH. But he is still running VO.

Could chunks of this thick carbon have broken off and be what destroys the turbos in these due to the EGR? Besides banging around in there and damaging the cylinder walls and valves, etc.

I take all of this as advice to be very careful with a TDI, both on D2 and VO.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby David » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:06 pm

SunWizard wrote:
Geez, all these tales of woe and I still can’t find any half creditable examples of Coking in vehicles in every day use despite all the fear mongering warnings about it.

I think the TDI example I gave above was creditable coking and you made no comments about it:


I did miss that the first time but I have tried to post relevant replies 2 twice since but they don't seem to go up. Maybe 3rd time lucky and I'll keep it short as I can.

If an engine has the same problem on Diesel as it does on WVO, I'm afraid I can't deem it to be a creditable example of WVO causing coking. To me it is an example of some sort of engine design problem.
I realise that these TDI's seem to be popular and much loved but from various things I have read about them, not just fuel of any kind problems, they seem to be rather touchy things.

I don't think I would concede any coking problems with these things on WVO to be creditable because they seem to have enough problems on the fuel they were designed for. I will say that WVO may exacerbate any already existing problem and may be best avoided using in this engine.

As this coking is behind the inlet valve, I can't see coking there having much to do with WVO if it occurs on a vehicle fueled with it. The inlet valve on a diesel only flows air, not an air fuel mix like may be found on a petrol engine. I would suggest that a water injection setup may go a long way in preventing this problem no matter what these engines are run on. based on my own experience with WI, I think it is a good thing on any WVO engine.

I don't think it likely that chunks of carbon breaking off would be damaging the compressor on the turbos. The valves are on the wrong side of the turbo and there is no way for the carbon bits to travel back to the Compressor side of the turbo even if they could come backwards against the flow of the air.
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Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:48 pm

The inlet valves on a TDI flows not just air, but has exhaust mixed in due to the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) and I think this is what causes a lot of the problems.

I don't know if any chunks of carbon could make it through the EGR to the compressor side of the turbo, but it seems like they could destroy the exhaust side of it.

I know other brands of modern cars have EGR, and I wonder why we don't hear about problems with it like on the TDIs?
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby Jake Palmer » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:13 am

SunWizard wrote:I take all of this as advice to be very careful with a TDI, both on D2 and VO.


Advice: Be careful with VWs, period.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:58 pm

Here's another new one, 2007 Dodge Cummins on B99 for 13k miles:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/415106403/m/8721097342

$6000 of damage, and voided warranty due to B99 use.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:49 pm

Here's a new one, this guy blended in his 2006 F250 using the DSE formula, and had HPOP leak on 1st tank, shop repair, then ruined his almost new fuel pump on the 2nd tank:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f22/wvo-2006f250-6-0-powerstroke-problems-195630/

Too bad he didn't do a some research on almost any forums before dumping that in his tank.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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