People who damaged their engines and how?

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby SunWizard » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:10 am

I started a new thread here and moved this topic.

Both of those look like lack of oil changes and other normal maintenance. Going too long between oil changes is a large problem on VO, thats why many recommend changing oil more often than the manufacturers specs. And getting oil analysis by a place like blackstone.
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:08 pm

Perhaps this section should be titled
"Engine damage from using VO"
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:21 pm

This was on a Dodge cummins which is the toughest engine ever put in a pickup.

Too long between Oil change (12k), too early switchover to VO, cylinder scarred, valves stick, push rods bend and the top of a couple tappets break:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4910&highlight=pump

Also had IP scarring damage due to not filtering/dewatering his VO well enough.

Vegtherm was 50% plugged with poly.
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:22 pm

John Galt wrote:Perhaps this section should be titled
"Engine damage from using VO"

Many of these its not determined if VO was the cause. Some of them may have had the same troubles even on diesel. It is useful to learn from others mistakes, those who are willing to admit them.
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Burbarian » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:41 pm

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Postby SunWizard » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:28 pm

And here is a thread refuting the claim the damage was due to VO on that TDI link you gave:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=189774

Warning there are lots of VO haters on that forum. After much debate, he decided that it was his no dewatering, performance chip, oversized injectors, and too long oil change intervals (10k) that combined with VO to cause the problem.

It appears that all the failures on this post so far have had too long oil change intervals.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:36 pm

Awesome topic. I'll dig up some threads when I get a chance.

A friend saw the TDI in the first post - it was ugly. The back-story explains it all. In a nutshell, the guy eventually confessed to having a dead cylinder BEFORE VO. Low compression at least, IIRC. He also admitted to not dewatering well and sometimes not at all, and maybe even put oil straight from the restraunt into the car. :roll: I think he put some performance upgrades on in the meantime also.

The bus looks like a similar blow-by issue and/or extended oil changes, like the 12v guy confessed to. That guy is my hero for actually coming back and sharing his dissaster and admitting he made some mistakes.

Good work y'all. Keep'em coming. Near misses too! I know there are some examples of people 1 tanking and blending who stopped after UOA showed destruction was eminent.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:40 pm

Another one: VO coked up my intake ports and valves:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205591

This was on a VW TDI and the problem occurs frequently even on D2 but appears worse on veg.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:03 pm

Here's a 'near miss'

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f22 ... vo-190967/

He admits to not testing for water and has almost no heat by the time VO gets to engine. IMO, cross-contamination prolly played a role too! A 6way valve in a PSD means LOTS of VO in D2 tank every switchover, I think he said 'I keep D2 level low' to compensate for that - which increased his 'blend' significantly. Also, he's in Montana - I hear its been cold there the last couple months. :roll:

I think this guy was waaay smart to do a UOA and determine he had a problem before wrecking his $10k engine!
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby hheynow » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:31 pm

Yeah I remember that thread. I have a Pollak valve and to deal with cross contamination in my rear tank I did a few things. Getting the aluminum block for my fuel filter housing greatly reduces the amount of vegoil sent to the rear tank AND I always start with a full rear tank of B99 and run it down to the red line. If I were to continually top it off I could see how an accumulation of vegoil would occur. I also keep track of how many purge cycles of returned vegoil my rear tank has per tank full. I'm not freaked out about this as many others are.
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1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
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Postby SkySkiJason » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:35 pm

Richard,

What am I missing here? Several people now have used that logic of letting their tanks go to empty, when I mention contamination.

If you have 30 gals of diesel and add 1 gal of VO you have a 30:1 ratio. If you have 5 gals of d2 and add 1 gal of VO now its 5:1 :shock: . (obviously, I am making up the ratios, so its easier for my 'lil brain to compute!)

So, less fuel in your tank = a higher percent VO, right? Its been a looong week, I may be slipping.

The problem I see is settling, particularly without a good method for 'mixing'. The VO is a little heavier than D2, so when it settles (OK, if it settles), then the fuel pickup on the VERY bottom of the tank can deliver straight VO - actually, fats are heavier than VO, so maybe straight animal fat is delivered to your COLD engine.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby hheynow » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:01 pm

You're not missing anything. Honestly, around town I'm forced to run on B99 rear fuel so there are periods of days that I never run vegoil. Sure that stinks but my 7.3L takes almost 15 miles to get warm enough to switch to vegoil. I also run my rear tank through my FPHE so it's at >140*F once warm. I still contend that only if you run your tank to red are you certain that there is a minimal amount of residual vegoil. Also with an empty tank I can pour a couple gals of B99 and run it for a while to dilute the % then fill it up. I'm not concerned.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
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Postby David » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:23 am

I looked at all the treads quoted and I am at a loss to find anywhere in any of them, one bit of evidence WVO was even LIKLEY to have caused the problems mentioned.

All the quotes below are from the threads themselves which pretty much gives the answers to the real cause of the problems.
The TDI story has been shown to me several times as evidence of Coking. It is simply evidence of stupidity and ignorance.
I’ll stop short of calling anyone that believes the cause of those problems a Bloody idiot because many people do not have much mechanical knowledge Not that it stops them putting forward their inane arguments) and other people commenting there whom are equally in the dark, would make the non-informed think it was in fact the cause.

The guy that posted that thread and did blame WVO as the cause IS an idiot for mouthing off about something he didn’t have a clue about and the fact he shredded a turbo in a week and still thought WVO was the problem.

At least some informed person finally put a bit of common bloody sense into the stupid story and put some perspective on it.


"Recently, here at Greasecar we have received a number of references to a TDI Club post entitled “WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story” and though the conversion product used on the vehicle referenced was not produced by Greasecar we decided to at least review the post.

I have finally found the time to take a look at the post in question and am honestly confused as to why there is any suggestion of a fuel or lube oil related failure on this engine. Based on the photos and facts provided it seems utterly clear that this failure is directly attributed to a foreign object smashing into the compressor turbine sending shrapnel into the cylinders of the engine which not surprisingly caused cylinder scoring and piston head chipping.

According to the story the turbo was replaced and the vehicle driven again for an undisclosed period during which its performance worsened to the point when it was decided to pull the head off. When the head was removed it was discovered that the cylinders were scored, pistons were chipped, heavy oil/soot residue was found on the back side of the intake valves and yet again the turbine was shattered! A horrible mess for sure.

There is no question that this engine was totaled but there is no explanation as to why it was attributed to running on vegetable oil and it was stated that the second turbo failure occurred after the SVO system was removed.

I think anyone with any experience with TDIs is well aware that the awful combination of crankcase ventilation and EGR result in heavy build up of intake sludge over time. This condition becomes even more exaggerated when low boost pressure is present and certainly when turbos are leaking oil into the intake and excessive blow-by and low compression result from scored cylinders and chipped pistons.

The real question:
What caused the scoring and chipping? Bits of turbine blades forced into the cylinder of course.

What caused the turbine blades to shatter (twice)? Certainly not vegetable oil."



There are also other telling explainations within the various posts and comments on the various stories such as:

“First off, did you have EGR on the car? It looks like only intake valves are all gooped up. The fuel is injected directly into the cylinder and will nto swirl around the back of the valves. That looks like EGR/crank vapor gunky around those valve. I would be willing to bet that the WVO made it gunk worse but deleting EGR and using a catchcan would eliminate that problem.
The second thing that baffles me is the turbo. Fins don't come apart in 1000 miles unless they eat something. Whatever the first turbo ate, so did the second. Fins damaged like that throws off the balance of the turbo and would kill the bearings causing the wobble, but that takes time, hense the second turbo's lack of wobble. The same thing goes for the pistons. The top ring has nearly no lubrication and running dry wont break the ringland. The ring land breaks in gassers from heavy knock/ping. Our pistons are beefy for the higher peak cylinder pressure so it would take debris in the engine (turbo came apart) to break that ringland.”

“The mechanic Chris informed us that an internal fuel leak had lead to an eventual coagulation of vegetable oil and motor oil which created the heavy gelatin like substance that eventually ate away at Herbie's vital organs.”

“The tech that rebuilt the pump could not find any water damage, however the plungers and barrels were scratched to the point that fuel would leak by and they would not build up enough pressure. He blamed this on inadequate filtering of the WVO, claiming he has seen this before. I was hot filtering down to 10 micron and de-watering via the heat and let cool method. So, there was no water damage in the pump but abrasion was problem.

There was some slight evidence of carbon build up above the upper rings on the pistons, and a little on the tops. I’m not sure if this was caused by not getting the VO hot enough or if I was getting blow-by past the worn oil rings. However I believe hurrying to switch over to VO could have allowed unheated oil to enter the engine.

The oil changes were well over 12k miles more then once. ”

“being impatient and switching too early is the culprit.”

(Amazing! What Have I been saying this week?)


“It was determined that the cause of failure was particles causing parts to bind up and seize.”

I think what these posts do show is that WVO may not be as forgiving to slackers that don’t maintain their vehicles properly nor put proper and due diligence into the preparation of the oil they are going to run as fuel.

We must remember that the Vehicles we are running WVO in were never designed for that. If they were, manufacturers may be better able to anticipate potential problems and possibly do something to offset the abuse they could suffer at the hands of their inept owners.

If anything, I think these posts show how WVO is a workable and non damaging fuel than it is to blame for any negative effects.

Geez, all these tales of woe and I still can’t find any half creditable examples of Coking in vehicles in every day use despite all the fear mongering warnings about it.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby BMW Fan » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:59 am

I can only second David's summarize.
Not ONE question, not ONE answer , absolutely nothing NEW.
Why don't we leave that kind of repeated discussion to the other forum ?
It only takes valuable space.

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