flash point/specific gravity TESTED

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:42 am

Notice that the German spec for VO fuel gives a minimum value of 220C (428F) and confirms that a higher flash point is better.

I just found that the auto-ignition temp of motor oil is 932F (500C) this explains why it is so smoky, and leads to carbon deposits, and is not a very good fuel additive. ATF is similar, and the question of burning both of these oils comes up often. Here is some science to explain why not to burn them.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby Welder » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:36 pm

SunWizard wrote:Notice that the German spec for VO fuel gives a minimum value of 220C (428F) and confirms that a higher flash point is better.

I just found that the auto-ignition temp of motor oil is 932F (500C) this explains why it is so smoky, and leads to carbon deposits, and is not a very good fuel additive. ATF is similar, and the question of burning both of these oils comes up often. Here is some science to explain why not to burn them.


Thank you Sun for confirming what I've been saying for years now. Unfortunately, because I still haven't converted to SVO yet, I'm sometimes dismissed as a misguided inexperienced newbie. A.C.R.E.V.O recomends 150 geg C, not 80 deg C. People always read the part where A.C.R.E.V.O. recomends 80 deg C and somehow miss the fact that the temp was referring to a 10% ethanol blend, NOT SVO/WVO.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:47 pm

I think you are confusing your temps. ACREVO is talking about the VO temps for lower emissions. This thread is talking about flash point and auto-ignition temps. I am saying auto-ignition temp is the thing that matters for a diesel engine. A higher flash point just makes it safer to handle.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby SkySkiJason » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:29 pm

That ACREVO study suggests that at 150C they got the most complete combustion...
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
SkySkiJason
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:06 pm

Postby Welder » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:41 am

SkySkiJason wrote:That ACREVO study suggests that at 150C they got the most complete combustion...


Thanks Jason, I was going to say something like that.

Actually A.C.R.E.V.O. didn't combust anything. It was a spray comparisson of canola under an increasing temp. The 80 deg C we often hear referred to is actually meant for 10% ethanol blends, not SVO.

Sunwizard, maybe I am a little confused. I think I've been a little sleep deprived lately...
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Biofuel Testing Idea

Postby HoldOnTight » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:00 am

SSJason, and others,
There seems to be a lot of effort to develop algoil. Some seem interested in developing their own bioreactor, processing and use. Yet, I think there is very little we know about the charactiristics of this oil. Is it like soy or canola or ...completely different?
1. SSJ, can you test this oil if people provide samples to you?
2. If anyone has access to this algae produced oil, can you provide a sample to SSJ and provide source information (such as algae species) used to develop this oil?

Seems to me a byproduct of the oil is oxygen...which historically we all know assists in the production of poly...

So, seems like fertile ground for understanding.

Thanks!
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
HoldOnTight
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Dayton OH

Postby SkySkiJason » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:21 am

I'm curious as well. IIRC, they can tailor the algae to produce oils that are better for certain fuels. I think the oxygen is released during growth of algae, just like any other plant?

But, I'm not sure I can measure the flash point of straight VO. It is around 600F. Even if I could, I'm not sure how much it tells us about its use as a fuel.

I will try to measure FP of straight VO next week...
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
SkySkiJason
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:06 pm

Postby coachgeo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:37 pm

should we not be more concerned with "pressure ignition point" not "flash ignition point" ?

Whats the value of knowing the flash point of VO's in a non compressed state; except when it comes to making home heating fuel burners?

Guess that answer falls in this: In compression ignition machine (diesel engine) is the high compression's ability to create high heat the sole reason the ignition of the fuel oil occurs or is their other factors too? If there are then how well does knowing flash points correlate to ignition under compression when these other factors are brought into play?

Exagerated example; if one could keep fuel oil at a constant cool temp (but still liquid) while it is being compressed will it still eventually ignite if the pressure builds high enough?
Last edited by coachgeo on Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby SunWizard » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:46 pm

coachgeo wrote:should we not be more concerned with "pressure ignition point" not "flash ignition point" ?

The figure that matters is the auto-ignition temp, where lower is better fuel for a diesel. Pressure doesn't matter, 1000psi VO if still cold it won't ignite. (unless the pressurizing also raised the temp - as in a diesel - temp is what matters) Flash point doesn't matter much, and higher is better. Reasons why given by me earlier in this thread, with links.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Testing of Algae Oil

Postby HoldOnTight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:18 pm

One question I have is this: If oil is generated by algae in water and produces oil and oxygen, then isn't that the recipe for polymerized oil? I suppose it isn't any different with corn or soy or other oils, or is it?

Could someone planting "diesel trees" today for oil production end up with plastic trees! Never mind that the trees would consume valuable land as opposed to Vertigro processing plants located on land without much agricultural value.

So, testing Algoil seems to be appropriate, but I think it will be difficult to get a sample for viscosity-longevity testing...this is hush-hush research.
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
HoldOnTight
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Dayton OH

Postby SunWizard » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:23 pm

All oil plants make oxygen. There is no poly until the oil is extracted, then exposed to heat and oxygen. Store algae oil properly and its as good as other VO. There is a local company making algae oil and its good fuel:
http://www.solixbiofuels.com/html/home.html
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Previous

Return to 2 Tank veggie oil conversion and General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron