flash point/specific gravity TESTED

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flash point/specific gravity TESTED

Postby SkySkiJason » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:55 am

Yes, I posted this somewhere else, too....

I had the oppurtunity to use some cool tools to do some 'real world' testing of diesel, biodiesel and VO.

First, let me describe my samples.

The diesel is from the pipeline, before it goes to the (2 million gal) tanks it is stored in before it gets on a truck to go to the gas stations. What does that mean? Its a little cleaner than what is at the gas station, not much.

The biodiesel was produced from WVO using a biopro 190. THIS sample came from my trucks fuel filter drain. It has some diesel in it. I estimate less than 5%.

The VO is from my trucks VO tank. It has some biodiesel in it. I estimate biodiesel is less than 10%, maybe less than 5%.

Before ya throw stones at me (not that I mind being stoned, hehehe: :lol: relax, I'm KIDDING), I used these samples because I HAD THEM WITH ME today. I should have a chance to test 'pure' samples of VO and Biodiesel in a couple weeks.

OK, the tools. Specific gravity was measured w/a hygrometer - all samples were same temperature - about 65degs. Here's a pic:

Image

The Flash Point is measured with this cool gizmo:

Image

What it does is take a small sample and gradually heat it, carefully measuring the temp. Then, you slide a little lid open and touch the flame to the vapor above the sample. When it 'flashes' or flares up as the flame touches it - you have determined the flash point. Here's a pic of touching the flame to the sample:

Image

The results:

Diesel - specific gravity 33.5, flash point 160F
Biodiesel - sg 30, fp 200F
VO - sg 22.5, 240F


"Acceptable" Diesel flash point varies from 125 to 225, depending on the 'quality'.

One thing this does for me is explain why VO and diesel do not stay in solution very well. This VO was mostly non-PH also! I wouldn't be suprised if PH oil was even heavier. Another thing it does is verify 'crackle test' is not accurate if diesel or bio are present.

Comments and suggestions for future tests using these tools are welcome! Praise and admiration for my detailed, laborious scientific study are not required, just send money...:D
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby 240Volvo » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:16 pm

That's great, thanks so much for the work and the post! I would be curious to see how WVO would be altered by blending with low percentages of kerosine or turpentine. RUG seems a bit dangerous, but.....

What was the VO used?

Oh, yeah. Almost forgot:

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1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby John Galt » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:22 pm

Interesting tests. "The diesel is from the pipeline" What pipeline from what refinery? Is it #1 ULSD, or #2 ULSD, or maybe something else?
What kind of VO are you using for the test?


One thing this does for me is explain why VO and diesel do not stay in solution very well. This VO was mostly non-PH also!


I've found that clear canola oil with no PHO or animal fats stays in solution with #1 ULSD in various mixes of 50-50 to 6%VO, in temperatures to the gel point of the mixed sample, as low as -35°.

I've only seen separation occur when the VO contained PHO or animal fats, in which case these components settle out leaving the clear oil component dissolved in the diesel. Diesel #2 can contain parafin wax which also settles out in cold temperatures.
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Postby Burbarian » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:33 pm

Great work, Sky. :)
I too would like to see test results for straight as well as different blend ratios as time permits.

An interesting point John brought up: Separation of the paraffin and PHO/fat components at low temperature. These would settle to the bottom of the container where the fuel pickup is, and hence aggravate cold weather plugging. John, you mention drawing only from the top of your upflow settling drum. This fluid would tend to have the lowest cetane rating of the various fuel components. It would be instructive to also see comparative results between the dewatered base oil and the light top fraction post settling.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:10 pm

John Galt, the primary refinery is in Ferndale, but diesel here may come from any of the 'northern' refineries - I guess they trade diesel around to make pipeline shipments more efficient...

This is #2 ULSD diesel. It was 6.8 ppm sulfur btw. This is the $60k machine that checks that:

Image

I could test different VO solutions for flash point fairly easy, but I don't think RUG would be a good idea.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby SkySkiJason » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:23 pm

Burbarian wrote:Great work, Sky. :)
I too would like to see test results for straight as well as different blend ratios as time permits.

An interesting point John brought up: Separation of the paraffin and PHO/fat components at low temperature. These would settle to the bottom of the container where the fuel pickup is, and hence aggravate cold weather plugging. John, you mention drawing only from the top of your upflow settling drum. This fluid would tend to have the lowest cetane rating of the various fuel components. It would be instructive to also see comparative results between the dewatered base oil and the light top fraction post settling.


Yes, John's samples help validate my tests. The VO I refer to settling out of diesel was 'warm' filtered with at least some PHO content. 'Warm' filtering is important because that means I'm putting ALL the fats through the filters. In summer, I am able to 'cold' filter for my initial pass. I was pouring collected VO thru a 5 gal nylon paint strainer (bag). Most of the fats do not pass thru this 100ish micron filter. The stuff that doesn't pass looks just like bacon fat. SO, my VO/#2 blends prolly had that stuff falling out of solution?

Does PHO settle out of diesel solutions as well?

Aren't John's samples non-ph canola??
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby John Galt » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:36 pm

It would be very useful if you could test a sample of new oil from the store, and then mixes of new oil with ULSD. The reference sample mixes are easy to make up. I use 'mason' jars. Add oil to the 10oz half mark, and fill with ULSD to the 20oz mark for the 50% sample. Pour the 50% mix into another jar to the 10oz mark, fill to 20oz with ULSD, for the 25%, sample. Similarly for the 12.5% and 6.25% samples. This provides a simple set of reference samples. I've calculated the cloud pt temperatures for canola mixes using those samples.

This gives a good comparison of clear clean oil with different "WVO" samples which can have varying amounts of PHO, animal fats, water, food particles and other contaminants.

My reference samples are clear clean canola, mixed with #1 ULSD [winter grade]. I also have various samples of "WVO" and processed "UVO" blends for comparison with the new oil samples. I consider "WVO" as Wierd Vegetable Oil of unknown origin and "UVO" as Used Vegetable oil from known source oil, with knowing what's been cooked in it, and how long it's been used.

When processed UVO is mixed with regular diesel fuel then the PHOs and fats in the mix will start to settle out at about 40°F to 50°F. As the mix gets colder both paraffin wax in the #2 diesel and the PHOs and fats will separate and settle out of the mix. The clear oil component will stay in solution till the gel point of that mix is reached then the whole sample will gel at once, just like #2 diesel does.

Refineries produce a range of distillates suitable for diesel fuel in our vehicles. The lightest are kerosene/stove oil/JetA, and the heaviest we would be using are #2 diesel/Home heating Oil. The blend sold as 'regular' diesel varies quite a bit between those extremes, depending on the market region and time of year. Here in the far north, and likely in CO, WY, ND, MN, MT, etc, winter grade #1 diesel is almost straight kerosene with lubricity additives.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:54 pm

John Galt wrote:It would be very useful if you could test a sample of new oil from the store, and then mixes of new oil with ULSD. The reference sample mixes are easy to make up. I use 'mason' jars. Add oil to the 10oz half mark, and fill with ULSD to the 20oz mark for the 50% sample. Pour the 50% mix into another jar to the 10oz mark, fill to 20oz with ULSD, for the 25%, sample. Similarly for the 12.5% and 6.25% samples. This provides a simple set of reference samples. I've calculated the cloud pt temperatures for canola mixes using those samples.


I'm happy to do this, but I don't understand what the reference samples tell us.

John Galt wrote:This gives a good comparison of clear clean oil with different "WVO" samples which can have varying amounts of PHO, animal fats, water, food particles and other contaminants.


The WVO samples I experimented with were 'real world' samples from different 'batches'. My dewatering still was 80gals, rendering about 70gals/batch (the fitting I drew 'good' oil from was up a few inches from the bottom). Each of these batches would be different. Sometimes ALL PHO, sometimes high in fat and the opposite. What I used to do was take a 16oz gatorade bottle sample from each batch as I put it in my truck. I eventually added some diesel to some of these samples looking for a lower gel point. THAT is where I saw the seperations, even in samples that rode around in the truck!

John Galt wrote:My reference samples are clear clean canola, mixed with #1 ULSD [winter grade]. I also have various samples of "WVO" and processed "UVO" blends for comparison with the new oil samples. I consider "WVO" as Wierd Vegetable Oil of unknown origin and "UVO" as Used Vegetable oil from known source oil, with knowing what's been cooked in it, and how long it's been used.

When processed UVO is mixed with regular diesel fuel then the PHOs and fats in the mix will start to settle out at about 40°F to 50°F. As the mix gets colder both paraffin wax in the #2 diesel and the PHOs and fats will separate and settle out of the mix. The clear oil component will stay in solution till the gel point of that mix is reached then the whole sample will gel at once, just like #2 diesel does.

Refineries produce a range of distillates suitable for diesel fuel in our vehicles. The lightest are kerosene/stove oil/JetA, and the heaviest we would be using are #2 diesel/Home heating Oil. The blend sold as 'regular' diesel varies quite a bit between those extremes, depending on the market region and time of year. Here in the far north, and likely in CO, WY, ND, MN, MT, etc, winter grade #1 diesel is almost straight kerosene with lubricity additives.


'Down here' all 'pump fuel' is #2. They have some #1 and #2 blends in Eastern WA, ID, MO, ND and I've seen #1 (kerosene) at the pumps there, but only avail. in winter. Down south (where I live) all kero/#1 is DYED.

GREAT side note fact. The 'lubricity additive' for ULSD diesel is added at a ratio of less than 20gals/100,000 gals of diesel. So this adds a great deal of validity to the study that showed 1-2% VO significantly increases ulsd lubricity. The 'real' additives are only a small fraction of 1%.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby 240Volvo » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:38 pm

I think that it makes more sense to test fluids other than diesel as blends, as the tests already show the SP and flash points of diesel. The lower gel/pour points of other products is already established, so that by using those instead of diesel, it would be possible to determine the highest possible percentage use of WVO as a blend. Except for RUG, of course.

Hope this helps!

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1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:47 pm

Talked to a friend this afternoon, he says he thinks the VO flashpoint is artificially lower due to the 'lighter' biodiesel evaporating FIRST. FP of VO over 600F.

So this test may not be valid for VO/'light oil' blends?????????
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:17 am

From what I've read on Infopop, I'd say your buddy is right. They say that veggie gets scary about 220 degrees.
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:02 am

SkySkiJason wrote:Talked to a friend this afternoon, he says he thinks the VO flashpoint is artificially lower due to the 'lighter' biodiesel evaporating FIRST. FP of VO over 600F.

So this test may not be valid for VO/'light oil' blends?????????

I am confused, there is no biodiesel in my VO.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby Burbarian » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:37 pm

Sun: Welder was referring to Sky's test sample of vo which had 5% to 10% BD 'contamination'.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:37 am

In a diesel a higher flash point is better. The VO flash point should be around 600F so it would be good to see some pure VO samples if your rig even is capable of that high temp.

The figure that matters is the auto-ignition temp, where lower is better and around 410F = diesel. Gasoline at 475-540F is a little high. I wonder what that is for VO? Sources I found said 690-750F, but that was in a pan and not sprayed in a mist.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_poin ... ash_points

Auto-ignition temps:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels ... d_171.html
Which shows that many of the additives used by blenders will raise the auto-ignition temps.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby John Galt » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:31 am

Flashpoint temperatures for different vegetable oils:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html
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