WVO hard numbers requested.

Space Heating with SVO WVO Vegetable Oil Biofuel.

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WVO hard numbers requested.

Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:26 pm

First of all, the hard numbers (data) I'm looking for are:

1. How many Joules of energy are in one litre (or gallon) of WVO?

2. How many BTUs of energy are in one litre (or gallon) of WVO?

The reason I'm looking for this info is that in my area (B.C. Canada) the local gas company (Terasen) just announced an 11% price increase in the cost of natural gas.

This means that a gigajoule of natural gas will cost $8.29.

I'm trying to do a basic cost analysis comparing generic WVO (yes, I know it varies) to natural gas.

Anyone got any numbers?
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Postby David » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:42 am

You can Google that info.
I have done it before but don't have the numbers now.
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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:29 am

Does this link look useful?:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_y ... l#fuelfats

It appears to list stuff like:

1.Rapeseed=39709 kJ/kg
2.Tallow=40054 kJ/kg
3.Peanut=39782 kJ/kg

How many kJ are in a gigajoule?
Last edited by Welder on Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:44 am

Okay, a quick trip over to www.convert-me.com showed that megajoule is 1000 times greater than a kilojoule. Can anyone confirm whether a gigajoule is 1000 times greater than a megajoule? (grade 7 was a long time ago)

If a gigajoule is 1000 times greater than a megajoule, then a Kg of rapeseed oil has about 0.039709 gigajoules of energy stored in it. I roughly guestimate that it would take about 25 kg of clean dry canola WVO to equal a gigajoule.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:21 am

Welder wrote:Can anyone confirm whether a gigajoule is 1000 times greater than a megajoule? (grade 7 was a long time ago)

If a gigajoule is 1000 times greater than a megajoule, then a Kg of rapeseed oil has about 0.039709 gigajoules of energy stored in it. I roughly guestimate that it would take about 25 kg of clean dry canola WVO to equal a gigajoule.


Yes I think you got that math right. Natural gas is cheap in Canada since you are the source of much of it. The price has tripled here recently.
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Postby John Galt » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:32 am

Energy values of diesel fuel oils

megaJoules per kilogram

#2 diesel 40.
canola 39.7
peanut 39.8
corn 39.5

megaJoules per litre

diesel 38.3
canola 36.9

One gigajoule≈

diesel 26 litres ≈ $33.50
canola 27 litres ≈ $45.50

data from
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html
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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:31 pm

That's a good link John. (my second post)

The point of this calculation was to verify whether someone in B.C., Canada would actually save any money by buying a proper CSA/UL certified multi-fuel burner and feed it with WVO.

It appears from Suns economic input that down in the States it actually is a good idea to run a furnace/boiler off used oils, but up in Canada, we've got so much cheap methane there isn't really a significant enough savings to justify the cost of purchase.

In you price calcs, I think you assumed virgin oil as fuel. If I new enough people who'd pay $45 for a gigajoule of WVO heat, I'd quit welding today and start delivering WVO heating oil. You American brothers could jump on that.
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Postby John Galt » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:12 pm

In you price calcs, I think you assumed virgin oil as fuel.

Yes, I assumed readers would understand that I was quoting virgin diesel oil and virgin canola oil. I have no data on "WVO" and didn't mention it.
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CNG fuel

Postby John Galt » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:16 pm

The most sensible vehicle fuel is CNG, especially for congested urban areas. At 1/3 the cost per GJ it would almost be worth it to have a home compressor station, although the bylaw folks would maybe take exception.
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Postby Welder » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:08 am

I know you didn't mention WVO. I did (thread title).

I don't think most city dwellers have adequate supplies of reasonable pure CNG to compress their own fuel. What are city slickers going to do, tie into the sewer line? Live on chilli burgers and pickled eggs?

I think WVO is the most reasonable fuel whether for heating (thread topic) or vehicular use. It requires relatively cheap and simple tech and is available in both rural and urban areas.
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Postby David » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:10 am

The trouble with using WVO in any sort of Qty is there is only enough to supply a small fraction of any population. When speaking of " City Dwellers" I have doubts if an entire city could generate enough WVO to supply one suburb with heating and vehicle fuel.

Wvo is great, but for more than us wack jobs using it, there simply isn't enough to go round and in a lot of places, not enough even for us let alone the rest of the Straights and uninformed. Using new oil is also a no go. Can't grow enough of that to use on any scale either. Even if you could, for the foreseeable future one would run into the same problem as Bio plants are... The demand on the supply would drive the price up to an uneconomical level in comparison to other alternatives like Dino oil and gas.

Gas on the other hand can be measured in the tens of years entire citys could be supplied which makes one a very viable option and the other not even in the race.

Natural gas in cars has drawbacks as mentioned but still is a lot more viable on any scale to veg oil.
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Postby John Galt » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:41 am

I was being humorous about people having their own natural gas compressor, it would be at service stations just like LPG. Vehicles in urban areas could be easily fueled by compressed natural gas from the same pipeline that provides natural gas for space heating and electricity generation.
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Postby David » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:24 pm

John Galt wrote:I was being humorous about people having their own natural gas compressor, it would be at service stations just like LPG. Vehicles in urban areas could be easily fueled by compressed natural gas from the same pipeline that provides natural gas for space heating and electricity generation.


The humor would have been lost on me. It is a reality here, people have their own Natural gas compressors that they can fill their cars from at home. From what I see on the net, the same is available in Canada and there so it's not a joke there either. There are already CNG service stations there too albeit not many, as the article I read says there are less than 700 vehicles using CNG there.

The thing with natural gas is it has to be compressed at very high pressures to get any range out of it and the tanks also become very bulky. Even with these drawbacks, the range of a CNG car is very short compared to normally fueled vehicles. The home compressors take a long time, "Overnight" to fill a tank and here the electricity to run the compressor costs more than the gas itself.

As we have loads of LPG, that is the " alternate" fuel of choice here and the government also offers a $2000 rebate on the price of having systems fitted.
Of course it was pure co-incidence that when the rebate was introduced, the cost of conversions seemed to go up universally by at least $1000 and for the main part , more! :roll:

LPG is used in homes where the natural gas is not available but mainly to use on cook stoves as heaters and hot water systems tend to chew through it pretty quick. In outlying areas where there is plenty of room, large fixed tanks are installed and filled directly from tanker trucks.

The other thing with WVO heating over gas is collecting the oil to start with. If you had a sufficient supply of wvo, the time to collect it and didn't mind getting your hands dirty doing some filtering or processing at least, as an individual doing it, the out of pocket expenses would have to beat anything else. A lot of people don't like getting their hands dirty and if it were delivered on a commercial basis, I doubt there would be much cost advantage.

There is a yahoo group that convert the normal household furnace oil burners to run on WVO so not only can it be done, like CNG, it is being done already.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:12 pm

David wrote:The home compressors take a long time, "Overnight" to fill a tank and here the electricity to run the compressor costs more than the gas itself.


Ok, dumb idea of the day: CNG fueled engine driving the CNG compressor?

(puts on flame suit)
Last edited by Burbarian on Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby David » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:46 pm

I don't think the using the gas would be terribly inefficient, the noise from the IC engine and keeping it quiet enough may be the problem.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

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