1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (Sunwizard) - Update 8/28

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:36 pm

I have not been getting fuel at the injectors when loosening the nuts. Sometimes a trickle...
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby SunWizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:55 pm

White99z wrote:I have also been opening the injector lines but not all at once. Am I correct in thinking this only works when cranking?

Yes.
Here is another idea now that you have a pressure guage, put 5psi in the fuel tank (if its good enough to handle that) and see if you get 5psi at the IP. Block the end going to IP so the pressure builds. If you don't have a blockage somewhere it should read about the same psi.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:20 pm

Today I noticed big air pockets in the line of my mechanical pressure gauge. Won't this cause it to read incorrectly? Damn... I just got air everywhere!
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:20 pm

Well... Two days ago I found the leak at my tank valve. Yesterday I went back the through the ENTIRE system and redid every fitting, reselling the threads properly with Permatex High Temperature Thread Sealant and the. The outside of all the threads with JB weld. I let it cure overnight and reinstalled late last night and today. While I was doing this, I verified the routing on everything, made sure all my valves were correct, etc. I found zero issues. I'm now convinced I am not sucking air.

What do I do now? Start replacing mechanical parts? I am at a complete loss. Lift pump? Overflow valve? Fuel shutoff solenoid? Or worse yet... Injection pump?

I have put 7 days sunup to sundown trying to troubleshot this system. I am hesitant to call a mechanic because of the modified fuel system and expense of paying someone else to do the exact troubleshooting I have just done.

I know I have taken a lot of your time and trying to take your advice to heart. I just don't know where to turn next.

All I can say is I am barely getting a trickle of fuel at the injectors... Some not at all. I can verify that diesel is flowing through all the diesel lines and veggie through all the veggie lines... Including the return lines.
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby SunWizard » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:37 pm

White99z wrote:Today I noticed big air pockets in the line of my mechanical pressure gauge. Won't this cause it to read incorrectly? Damn... I just got air everywhere!

Not a problem.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:45 pm

SunWizard wrote:
White99z wrote:Today I noticed big air pockets in the line of my mechanical pressure gauge. Won't this cause it to read incorrectly? Damn... I just got air everywhere!

Not a problem.


That being said... I am not getting any fuel pressure.
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby SunWizard » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:01 pm

White99z wrote:All I can say is I am barely getting a trickle of fuel at the injectors... Some not at all. I can verify that diesel is flowing through all the diesel lines and veggie through all the veggie lines... Including the return lines.

A trickle is all you ever get. Once you get it, close that one, while keeping the others open.

If you have fuel at the lift pump, you should be seeing >5 psi at the IP when cranking (I see 20psi on mine when cranking) and if you are not you may have something plumbed wrong or a bad lift pump. The usual way to test for a bad lift pump is clamp shut a hose after the lift pump and guage with vice grip pliers, and crank and you should get slowly increasing pressure up to 50 psi on your guage within < a minute. Don't go too long with it clamped shut or it can go even higher than 50 and pop a hose.

A diesel mechanic should be able to look at it, since with the valves set to D2, the flow through all parts is same as stock, purging air and starting after getting air in IP is the same as stock, and you could show him where the flow goes to your valves. Hopefully you don't have WVO in the D2 side since that also causes hard starts, but would not have caused your air problem.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Posts: 1723
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby SunWizard » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:05 pm

White99z wrote:I can verify that diesel is flowing through all the diesel lines and veggie through all the veggie lines... Including the return lines.

Something wrong there since there shouldn't be any flow but a trickle out the return until pressure hits 35 psi when the overflow valve opens and then you get a lot like a gallon per minute. And that is usually only after it starts.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:07 pm

SunWizard wrote:
White99z wrote:All I can say is I am barely getting a trickle of fuel at the injectors... Some not at all. I can verify that diesel is flowing through all the diesel lines and veggie through all the veggie lines... Including the return lines.


A trickle is all you ever get. Once you get it, close that one, while keeping the others open.


When we finished the conversion and cracked the injector lines, for starting, it was considerably more fuel coming out. I can go back out to the bus and do the lift pump test you just described. I would love to get this thing running again... I'm pulling my hair out over here :evil:
White99z
 
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:08 pm

SunWizard wrote:
White99z wrote:I can verify that diesel is flowing through all the diesel lines and veggie through all the veggie lines... Including the return lines.

Something wrong there since there shouldn't be any flow but a trickle out the return until pressure hits 35 psi when the overflow valve opens and then you get a lot like a gallon per minute.


When I said including the return lines... all I meant was that when I unhooked the lines, there was fuel in them. I have not verified that fuel is actually returning through them, as I have not had the engine started in a week now.
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:02 pm

We had my partner's uncle come out tonight. He is a diesel mechanic that works on Brinks armored trucks with international and cummins engines. Many have the P7100 pump. He did a lot of the same trouble shooting as me, and it was great to have experienced eyes and hands on the bus. But... we ended up the same place. No starting...

We did verify that the lift pump is doing it's job. Also the fuel shut off solenoid appears to be working fine. What we did find strange was that fuel is for sure entering the injection pump (verified by removing the banjo fitting on the inlet) and exiting (when the OFV and banjo fitting are removed). However, there is no pressure being built within the pump and no fuel going to the injectors.

We both began thinking the worst that the Injection pump was going bad. We accidentally crimped the line on the fuel pressure gauge, so we assumed it was not working. He decided to pinch off the return line after the OFV for a quick second while we started it and we were surprised to see that the pressure very quickly rose towards 60psi (didn't actually get there and I wasn't quick enough to get accurate readings). We also decided to do this test after the lift pump and again, it rose very quickly.

We took the overflow valve off and I am going to get a replacement. Neither of us are sure if this will cause our non-starting issue, but at this point, we are going to spend the $50-60 to replace it and see. I am afraid that the next step might be taking the Injection Pump in to get tested.

I am at a loss, feel beaten up, chewed up, and spit out from all of this, and just don't know what to do. I have devoted literally every waking moment to this for the past 8 days. It's driving me nuts. I am amazed at what I have learned in all of it... and our mechanic family member was pretty amazed that I knew what I did. However, all this amazement won't get our bus started. Thoughts?

Questions:
1.) Can the overflow valve cause a no-start issue?

2.) Is it possible it could show signs of going bad suddenly as our bus seems to have done? I have read that symptoms often include white smoke, poor power, etc. I remember when we started it for the first time after the conversion there was a TON of white smoke. I had never seen the engine do anything like that. I just assumed there was extra fuel in there getting burned off. As for poor power... perhaps it was underpowered? I just figured it is slow going in a big old bus... but perhaps it was running poorly and I just took it as normal since the bus is new to us...

3.) Is our next step really looking into the possibility of Injection Pump Failure? It seems so odd that it would die suddenly after 15 minutes of running after the conversion, on a bus that has taken me from Pennsylvania to Michigan and across Michigan a couple times in the past few weeks... So far, everything seemed really reliable until we messed with the fuel system.
White99z
 
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby SunWizard » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:32 pm

White99z wrote:Questions:
1.) Can the overflow valve cause a no-start issue?

Yes, sounds likely if you still get no pressure before IP. Does your overflow valve still look OK like not missing the spring or ball?
2.) Is it possible it could show signs of going bad suddenly as our bus seems to have done? I have read that symptoms often include white smoke, poor power, etc. I remember when we started it for the first time after the conversion there was a TON of white smoke. I had never seen the engine do anything like that. I just assumed there was extra fuel in there getting burned off. As for poor power... perhaps it was underpowered? I just figured it is slow going in a big old bus... but perhaps it was running poorly and I just took it as normal since the bus is new to us...

Don't know. You would probably get lots of smoke if you cold start on VO by accident.
3.) Is our next step really looking into the possibility of Injection Pump Failure? It seems so odd that it would die suddenly after 15 minutes of running after the conversion, on a bus that has taken me from Pennsylvania to Michigan and across Michigan a couple times in the past few weeks... So far, everything seemed really reliable until we messed with the fuel system.

Not IP, its the pressure before IP as I keep saying.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:43 am

SunWizard wrote:
White99z wrote:Questions:
1.) Can the overflow valve cause a no-start issue?

Yes, sounds likely if you still get no pressure before IP. Does your overflow valve still look OK like not missing the spring or ball?
Don't know. You would probably get lots of smoke if you cold start on VO by accident.


The overflow valve is the one piece design. It doesn't appear to be missing anything.

When we first started the bus, the veggie oil lines weren't even primed and no VO in the tank. There was no chance of veggie oil being used on start up.
White99z
 
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby White99z » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:49 pm

A little development. Today... We put in a new overflow valve. We actually get pressure while cranking now… Up to about 20-25 PSI. Will hold that pressure on the gauge for a few minutes after we stop cranking now. This did not happen before, so something is changed. However… Still no starting.
White99z
 
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Re: 1992 - Bluebird Bus WVO Conversion (5.9 Cummins - Sunwiz

Postby SunWizard » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:46 pm

White99z wrote:We actually get pressure while cranking now… Up to about 20-25 PSI..

Good news, with more cranking with the injector nuts loose it will probably start getting enough flow now to get the air out of the IP and injector lines finally. Once you see some smoke out the exhaust you know you are close since that is unburned fuel. One idea is that you got some debris or your bad pipe compound in the overflow valve that made it stop working quickly, although I have never heard of that. You could try to take apart the old overflow valve to see if that is the case, and if so there is probably something in the IP which could cause trouble too.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

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