Converting tractor to run wvo

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:43 am

John Galt wrote:A tiny inline strainer is not going to protect the IP. That's why the OEM fuel filter, immediately before the IP on probably all diesel fuel systems, is rated at 10µ not the 50µ of an inline strainer.

Yes it protects because poly breaks off the surfaces of FHPE only in large chunks. Once the chain reaction is going, any filter won't protect against it from forming at a molecular level and forming a layer on everything including in the IP. Although once its going it clogs filters quickly so you have good warning.
Note if you have poly in your FPHE, you will have poly inside the IP as well

John Galt wrote:With the design you posted that's probably true.
That won't happen with the filter immediately before the IP. Don't bypass it.

Wrong, since poly is a chain reaction that once started clings to every surface in the FPHE, lines, injectors, and IP. Ask any IP repair shop who has seen them, or look a the many pictures on forums from WVO users who had IP poly problems and destruction, yet had a filter just before IP.

The only good solution to poly is to avoid using old WVO that has the poly reaction occurring.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:54 am

The thing you want to avoid is having a large volume of cold WVO go into the IP from that filter (or 3 filters) each time you switch over.

John Galt wrote:No, there would be no volume of cold VO collecting in the filters, VO switching should be done before the filters.

Also wrong, since in this example if you had 3 quarts of cold diesel in the filters, and switched before them, it would take > 60 minutes of running cold diesel/WVO blend before it gets warm enough >160F at the IP. This is because in this case the hot WVO comes into the loop slowly and blends with a much larger amount of cold diesel. Another reason to not share filters. There are many more reasons I could dig up from old posts.

With my setup, its >160F at the IP within 1 minute of switching.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby John Galt » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:01 pm

The filters are attached to the engine block, there will be no "three quarts of cold diesel", except on start-up, and that's always been the case.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:02 pm

John Galt wrote:The filters are attached to the engine block, there will be no "three quarts of cold diesel", except on start-up, and that's always been the case.

Heat transfer to the fuel depends mostly on the amount of area that conducts heat. It looks like the filters are connected to the block with about 3 square inches of area. Being connected to the block with that small area will barely heat the fuel. A 30 plate 3"x7.5" FPHE contains 675 square inches to transfer heat, or about 200x better.

Also, the coolant in the FPHE heats up far quicker than the entire engine block. My engine block is barely warm (<100F) on the side after 5 minutes when my coolant is 160F in the heater loop.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:21 pm

Another reason not to share the filters is that even if you do a extra long 30 minute purge with cold diesel, you still don't get all the WVO out of the pleats of the filters. This then solidifies on the filters making the next cold start harder since the flow is restricted. And the flow remains restricted so you can't run properly under load until you have run hot WVO through the filter again to melt the solid WVO off the filters. The extent of this problem depends on the % of meat fats or PHO in the WVO since it is solid at room temp. Also on the type of oil and night time temps.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:32 pm

Also John, are you still blending in low ratios, and not running a 2 tank setup? So your advice is based on reading from forums rather than your actual experience with a 2 tank system?
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby Case1030 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:58 pm

See I can bypass the first filter, but the second and third filter will be nearly impossible without making a mess out of the original fuel plumbing due to the nature of the IP and transfer pump. The only possible thing I could do is install a separate lift pump at the veg tank and hook it right up directly after the heat exchanger to the ip. But fo how little i will be turning the system on and off is it that big of an issue having the stock filters, im all ears as you have experience? I know John has a good point I just want to hear both sides to come to a conclusion about what i am going to do. By rushing into this only asking for problems, but while my heat exchanging is shipping better take the time to think it over.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:52 pm

It simple to do the same as my diagram, pretend the 1st filter is not there and its part of the diesel supply line. Its just a coarse strainer. The tank selector goes in line just before the lift pump. The filter selector goes in line right after lift pump. The return selector goes in the return line, after the IP drains. Refer to diagram again:
Image

If you are doing a different plumbing, post a diagram and I might be able to improve it. Its not "both ways" but many ways it can be done.

If you are as worried about poly as John, you can do the same diagram but move the FPHE to just before the WVO filter. The drawback is a quart worth of running on cold WVO after switchover, but not near as long running cold WVO as it would be if you had 3 filters full of cold diesel that are shared. As I said before, the poly scare is completely solved better with a small volume filter just before the IP, that way it won't contain much cold WVO. But if you have that much poly that its made it past your 1st filter, you have it everywhere. John hasn't answered that gaping flaw in logic. If poly somehow got past your first 10 micron filter and is in the FPHE, it will get past another 10 micron filter too, besides already being in the IP and all lines (since it must be forming in all those places at the same time.) Also if its forming poly in the FPHE, why would it not also form the same amount of poly in the outlet to IP side of any filter just before IP? Chunks of poly could break off that and enter your IP just the same!
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby Case1030 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:31 pm

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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:16 pm

Case1030 wrote:Sunwizard your opinion on this 40 plate fphe http://www.ebay.ca/itm/321313279472?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Looks like a good deal, better price than I have paid on 30 plates, for about the same unit.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby John Galt » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:50 pm

I refuse to engage in personal discussions.

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby Case1030 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:51 pm

Here is the diagram using only one filter, is this the right idea?
Image
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby Case1030 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:46 am

But sunwizard the only reason why I am changing my mind about using all the filters are because I found out the last filter is $60 to replace and $35 for a knockoff filter. But I do think if I were to have used all three filter it would have worked properly because not only are the filters bolted to the block the lines are also only about half since away with steel lines that would get a lot of heat radiated by the block, and remember I will only be using the tractor on nice sunny +75-80 days, I'm sure it would have ran alright but to eliminate chancing plugging the last filter with cold wvo, I thought I better eliminated chancing it. Instead I am running the wvo through the 2 nd filter which are about $8.
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Re: Converting tractor to run wvo

Postby SunWizard » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:50 am

Sharing 2nd filter is a bad idea, and you have no WVO filter? Might as well get rid of filter selector valve then and either share 2 and 3, only share #3, or don't use 3 at all. Not much need for it since diesel needs less filtering than WVO. Check the micron rating of #2, it might not be very good since 3 is probably the good one.

What is your added check valve for? I don't see any need for that since the flow can go only 1 way. Also not good to have FPHE that far from IP since much of the heat will be lost to the block or air. You could put a temp. guage right before the IP to find out.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
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