Rotary Injection Pumps, comparing Stanadyne & Bosch

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Rotary Injection Pumps, comparing Stanadyne & Bosch

Postby BMW Fan » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:58 am

New thread started from this lift pump thread:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about94-30.html

Hi Jeff,

as always pictures are better then thousand words.
Bosch Rotary Pump detailed.
The second picture shows the vane part.
Click on the picture to increase size.

Klaus

Image
Image
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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:48 pm

Thanks for the pics Klaus. Yes, they are definately better than a thousand words.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:21 pm

There are 2 main types of rotary IP, others are licensed copies: Bosch and Lucas/CAV. Bosch style are much better pumps.

Bosch: Denso, Zexel, Diesel-Kiki
Lucas/CAV: Stanadyne, Roto-diesel, Con-diesel, Delphi
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby BMW Fan » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:12 pm

For those people with a Stanadybe DB2 rotary Pump
( low pressure vane pump built in )

the following link might be interesting:

How the Stanadyne DB2 Fuel Injection Pump Works

http://rubiconautoparts.com/wst_page7.html


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Postby Welder » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:47 am

Very informative link Klaus. Thanks.
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:55 am

SunWizard wrote:There are 2 main types of rotary IP, others are licensed copies: Bosch and Lucas/CAV. Bosch style are much better pumps.

Bosch: Denso, Zexel, Diesel-Kiki
Lucas/CAV: Stanadyne, Roto-diesel, Con-diesel, Delphi



Sunwizard, can you list the documentation to your above factual first statement or the second? or Is this just you HO.

According to my diesel shop here in NY that I do business with (Ralph's Diesel, Nelson NY). the British in-line pumps are clones of the Bosch without infringing on patents or having to buy rights.

And the British rotaries are Clones of the Stanadyne/RoosaMaster,, without infringing on patents and having to buy rights.

This does seem to be OT also, isn't the thread about electric lift pumps? sorry for bring off topic
93, F250, 7.3, N/A, WVO since 5-06 over 147K so far, 2wd, ext cab, 100 gal. tank, DIY system. 10psi 23A FASS w/ ProComp regulator.

FilterFuge FF60 CF, over 22,300 gal. spun
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:39 am

Welder wrote:Very informative link Klaus. Thanks.




There seems to be some misconceptions on the Rotary fuel injection pump. I hope this may allow all of us to better understand the Rotary pump better. IMHO it is a very good pump.

I hope everyone likes this link,


http://files.asme.org/asmeorg/Communiti ... /10001.pdf
93, F250, 7.3, N/A, WVO since 5-06 over 147K so far, 2wd, ext cab, 100 gal. tank, DIY system. 10psi 23A FASS w/ ProComp regulator.

FilterFuge FF60 CF, over 22,300 gal. spun
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:34 am

FlyboyDVIII wrote:Sunwizard, can you list the documentation to your above factual first statement or the second? or Is this just you HO.

Here is one study with that info, its 2.2MB but gives lots of interesting and well footnoted info on many aspects of VO use:
http://www.sopac.org/tiki/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=1195

What are the misconceptions? Being a licensed copy doesn't mean they had to buy the rights, although its usually never disclosed what deals were made.

My opinion that the Bosch is a better IP is based on reading research like the above, and comparing the way they are made (like the exploded diagrams and the size of the various parts) and by reading many forum posts for years about very quick failures of the stanadyne IP on VO, and very few failures of the Bosch.

I have a Roosa master IP (same as stanadyne) on my tractor, and I have torn it down and rebuilt it, and I wasn't impressed, other than how small and cheap they were able to make it compared to an inline IP. I am not running that one on VO, but I don't use it much.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
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Postby Radrick » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:01 pm

FlyboyDVIII wrote:
Welder wrote:Very informative link Klaus. Thanks.




There seems to be some misconceptions on the Rotary fuel injection pump. I hope this may allow all of us to better understand the Rotary pump better. IMHO it is a very good pump.

I hope everyone likes this link,


http://files.asme.org/asmeorg/Communiti ... /10001.pdf


Very informative link Flyboy. :)
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:59 pm

The Stanadyne DB2/4 is a very elegantly designed rotary IP from a mechanical perspective. And it does its job adequately for the task it was designed to do. Of course, it is not as robust as some other designs, but it is also considerably less expensive. Given proper care and feeding, it will provide decent service between rebuilds. For some who have these IPs (GM 6.2/6.5 / Ford 6.9/7.3) you use what you got bolted onto your engine.

Considering that it is a distributor type pump where the single plunger is serving all 8 cylinders and reciprocating at 8x the engine RPM, one would expect it to wear out 8x as quickly.
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Burbarian wrote:The Stanadyne DB2/4 is a very elegantly designed rotary IP from a mechanical perspective. And it does its job adequately for the task it was designed to do. Of course, it is not as robust as some other designs, but it is also considerably less expensive. Given proper care and feeding, it will provide decent service between rebuilds. For some who have these IPs (GM 6.2/6.5 / Ford 6.9/7.3) you use what you got bolted onto your engine.

Considering that it is a distributor type pump where the single plunger is serving all 8 cylinders and reciprocating at 8x the engine RPM, one would expect it to wear out 8x as quickly.


Burbarian"s 2 Misconceptions, a) it actualy has 2 plungers to pump fuel to each cylender. not One.

b) it runs at 8x engine speed. No it actualy it runs at 1/2 engine RPMs, just like a distributer.


Sunwizards Posts, might be a misconception, that every rotory is a copy of lucas/cav. Fact is, Vernon Roosa invented the rotary then went to work with Stanadyne to perfect it for other aplications, and sold rights to the others. sunwizard that is not what you imply in your previouse post.
This is documented in the link link I posted, from ASME.org
93, F250, 7.3, N/A, WVO since 5-06 over 147K so far, 2wd, ext cab, 100 gal. tank, DIY system. 10psi 23A FASS w/ ProComp regulator.

FilterFuge FF60 CF, over 22,300 gal. spun
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:47 pm

FlyboyDVIII wrote: Burbarian"s 2 Misconceptions, a) it actualy has 2 plungers to pump fuel to each cylender. not One.


I stand corrected. However, the two plungers act as a single unit, and is indexed to a single head outlet discharge port for each cylinder.

b) it runs at 8x engine speed. No it actualy it runs at 1/2 engine RPMs, just like a distributer.


No, I said the PLUNGER is RECIPROCATING at 8x engine speed, not turning at 8x rpm. 2 plunger strokes per cylinder injection, 1 injection per 2 revolutions.

Of course that too could stand correction. :)
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:03 pm

FlyboyDVIII wrote: Sunwizards Posts, might be a misconception, that every rotory is a copy of lucas/cav. Fact is, Vernon Roosa invented the rotary then went to work with Stanadyne to perfect it for other aplications, and sold rights to the others. sunwizard that is not what you imply in your previouse post.

I never said all rotary are copies of lucas/cav, my post was to contrast the 2 main (and different) types. I don't know or specify who owned the rights and who licensed to who. I believe the 2 main types are correct:

Type 1: Bosch, Denso, Zexel, Diesel-Kiki
Type 2: Lucas/CAV, Stanadyne, Roto-diesel, Con-diesel, Delphi

Add to type 2 Roosa master, used on tractors and industrial.

Is there something wrong with breaking into those 2 types as much of the research I have seen does? Someone in the US would probably call type 2 Stanadyne type since they are most common here, while the rest of the world would call them Lucas/CAV type since they are most common everyplace but US.

Type 2 requires more care if you want to run VO since they are known to have troubles with it more than any other IP. As I said in the other post, the experimenting now for VO is to preheat the IP and the fuel before switching over to VO to lessen the problems with it.
Last edited by SunWizard on Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:30 pm

Sunwizard: In your original post you have a Colon after Lucas/cav, I mistook that as to say the rest were clones. yes two types is OK.

Burbarian: What ever you want, A OK. yes in an 8 cylinder they reciprocate 4 times for every revolution of the motor.
93, F250, 7.3, N/A, WVO since 5-06 over 147K so far, 2wd, ext cab, 100 gal. tank, DIY system. 10psi 23A FASS w/ ProComp regulator.

FilterFuge FF60 CF, over 22,300 gal. spun
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:10 pm

Here is another good link about these pumps by HC II, considered an expert on IPs and VO use:

http://www.freewebs.com/hcii/index.htm and
http://www.freewebs.com/hcii/pumpidentification.htm

He agrees that the Bosch is a much better rotary IP, and gives pictures of most types of IPs and lots more good details of each. He even developed a special mod to address the problems with Lucas/CAV/stanadyne type pumps.

He mentions a problem with them I hadn't heard of:
"Another issue with these pumps is that under conditions of over-run, (engine braking), The fuel supply and hence lubrication is cut off from the rotor head completely!"
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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