Copper TIH veggie fuel lines.

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby SkySkiJason » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:06 pm

Y'all crack me up. Yes, this discussion should be in another thread, BUT...

Its fine with me if some people don't 'believe' in polymerization. However, it is irresponsible to express to new people it is 'a load of crap' and even more so to qoute anything Dana said, ever. (Sorry, I have read waay too much of his ramblings and contradictions to give him credit for anything)

The fact is there is hard science that shows us what and why this natural reaction takes place. Please accept that this is real and does happen. There may be some odd reason why it doesn't happen to everyone - and THAT could be your focus.

As far as this HE goes, it is poor design because of the POTENTIAL for poly. This is not new information. There were studies about VO as a fuel that were published more than 20years ago that discuss copper and polymerization - long before anybody ever claimed to have 20yrs of experience on the www. The SCIENCE here is that oxidative metals are a PART of the polymerization equation. Adding it to your system greatly increases your chances of having this become a problem. Why play Russian Roulette (sp?) and HOPE it won't happen to you?
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:01 pm

Hello SkySkiJason

I would never deny that polymerization happens .Yes no doubt that fact is covered by hard science.

What not happens is polymerization in a CLOSED system.

The copper heat exchanger shown might be not very effective but
- DOES NOT INCREASE POLIMERIZATION –

Let me give you example :

1.)The time it takes from the tank to the Injector pump is way to short to have any influence.
2.) This tiny copper HE can not overheat the veggie fuel.
If it reaches 50 degree the “ inventor” would be happy I guess.

I am very willing to learn and accept your “ hard” 20 year old facts.
I am hoping for an open and honest discussion.

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Postby SkySkiJason » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:17 pm

Do you mean chicken skin doesn't happen in a closed system?

I realize its not apples to apples - but EVERY GC tank I've seen makes poly in just a couple months. Regular cleaning is required. Why? copper HE exposed to oxygen. Yes, the oxygen is key - but it only SPEEDS the reaction - likely creating many more free radicals than the 'closed' HE we are talking about.

Polymerization is a chemical reaction. My point is that the more ingredients you add that cause this reaction, the SOONER it will happen. ANY exposure to any ingredient creates the reaction, combine and/or increase the ingredients and it happens FASTER.

Once the peroxide free radicals are created, they cruise around 'damaging' other molecules and creating more free radicals. So, if you add some of these to the VO just before it is consumed - NO BIG DEAL. But, if you add a few each time the VO passes by, then it is returned to the tank after the IP like MOST diesels do - then you are adding more and more free radicals to the VO in the tank as you drive. Again, if you consume the entire tank every few days - it may take a long time for problems to show up, but it is a cumulative effect. Even the last little bit of VO in the tank 'contaminates' the fresh oil you add at fill up.

One thing we learned from Joe's tests was that ALL of the samples from VO fuel tanks people sent him had significantly higher peroxide values than the same user's filtered/dewatered samples. This indicates that even Chris Goodwins own truck is 'creating' poly. Was he getting chicken skin or any other issues? No. Could he have increased filter life w/o it? Maybe...

Joe Beatty has the longest filter life pre-filtering and on trucks of anyone I've met. He was adding a VO stabilizer as soon as he collected WVO. It was filtered and dewatered w/this stuff in it. His theory is even early stages of poly plug filters. Picture chicken skin that is only 5 mic in size - eventaully it plugs the filter - WAAAAAY before you can see it.

That is why it is important to avoid the things that cause the reaction, it does not just turn into fruit roll-ups (my kids call it) at the snap of your fingers. First, the molecules begin to link together - eventually as they 'grab' more like them they form the 'chains' we see as chicken skin (fruit roll-ups).
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Galvanized pipe for pickup in tank

Postby jwt1954 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:33 pm

Why cant I use plain old galv pipe for pickup in fuel tank?
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Re: Galvanized pipe for pickup in tank

Postby SkySkiJason » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:55 pm

jwt1954 wrote:Why cant I use plain old galv pipe for pickup in fuel tank?


Easy, galvanizing will come off in the VO. Simple to prove this, just drop a galv. fitting in some VO and observe. Only takes a day or 2.

I've used black iron pipe extensively in pre-filtering stuff - no prob's w/it YET!
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby David » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:30 pm

SkySkiJason wrote:
Why? copper HE exposed to oxygen. Yes, the oxygen is key - but it only SPEEDS the reaction - likely creating many more free radicals than the 'closed' HE we are talking about.


Where is the oxygen coming from in a HE that is filled completely with oil???

No one said Poly dosen't happen, hell, I could farm the stuff if I wanted to because I can easily grow the stuff in sheets if I wanted. What I dispute is the notion that copper and steel are soley responsible for the formation of poly. I say water is a factor, Sun says it's oxygen which I also believe is most likely also a valid key. What I dispute is that placing Copper or steel in the system will cause poly where there was none before given all other things being equal.

I have seen poly all over plastic cubees I use so that I have spilt oil on and the fact my Copper HE has not caused any probs for over a year leads me to the practical, NOT theoretical conclusion that a system free of poly is not going to have problems with it simply by the addition of a steel or copper component.

If your argument is based around only the POTENTIAL for it's formation, that is different and you need to recognise that yourself. There is potential for every engine to fall over the moment Veg oil comes near them and some virtually do. The FACT however is that most engines are very happy and the potential problems never happen in practicality.
Every hose clamp and connection we add to our vehicles has potential to leak and stop our vehicles. Some do most don't. 6 port valves can fail as mine did last week at an extremely inopportune time ( on the way to the airport) but will I not use one again because it has the potential to fail again as well? No.

The use of veg oil is full of hazzards and risks that have potential to damage our vehicles but at the end of the day 90% of the things we do is unproven so we take the calculated risks and for 99% of the time we get away with it. If we worried about the potential of everything to cause problems then we probably wouldn't even have vehicles in the first place.

Copper and steel well may be factors in the formation of poly but my belief is that they are not the SOLE factors for its creation. Like the triangle of fire, you need other factors to make it happen. I have seen lots of "scientific" that concludes you can't run veg oil in a diesel without all sorts of impractical complications but plenty of us do it. The only real science I am interested in this game is what the bulk of people do in real life , every day use.

Again to simplify, Do I believe that the addition of a Copper HE in a system previously free from poly will cause its formation if no other factors are changed within that system?
Absolutely not.

Is it your position that a copper HE in said system will cause Poly or just that it Might ?
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:32 pm

I believe Sky does not understand the term CLOSED system and OPEN system.
All his examples are throw something into .....expose it to air and bang,
there is polymerization.
YES, hundred percent true and not really new to us.
I was running a Restaurant Service to rejuvenate their oil. I did that for some years.
All my equipment is made from stainless steel. ( it’s the law ).
If I wasn’t careful and got some drops on the surface, bang, it stuck better then the best glue. Why ? the heat it was exposed too and the air.

To begin with OPEN system in my understanding is where air can freely circulate, meaning inside the TANK.
Here we can, if we are not careful, easily create polymerization.
THAT IS A GIVEN FACT.
The type of oil, overheated tank, water in the oil all are kind of known facts too.
( that’s why we dewater, test the oil and filter low as possible and keep the temperature low )
Soon as the veggie leaves the tank the oil is either under vacuum or pressure depending on your system.
This is what I call CLOSED system. From here on there is no more air which could cause polymerization.
I am very willing to invite you to my GET TOGETHER ON VEGGIE
and I will show you in person pieces of copper tubing app. 9 years old.
Totally clean inside. The copper did not damage my IP nor any other part of the engine.
If you can't come you might accept BURBARIAN as a witness ?

On a side note I can also show a sample of 80% oil , 20% DIESEL sitting on my computer for the last 3 years. No layers at all.

Best regards

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Postby Burbarian » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:32 am

BMW Fan wrote: If you can't come you might accept BURBARIAN as a witness ?


Actually, I am in total agreement with BOTH of you. Sky's concern is with an open loop where the vo is essentially circulated through the heated copper lines, then allowed to return to the tank. In my opinion, a valid concern. The critical factor as Beemer pointed out, is the OPEN vs CLOSED scenarios.

Currently sourcing my components, and one of them is a copper TIH, poly tank with a heated stainless steel pickup and check valve. Unidirectional flow, looped fuel system and no return to tank. Once the veg is pulled from the tank it is not allowed to return. Within the lines you have no additional oxygen supply other than any dissolved oxygen in the oil itself. High flow rates in tubing prevents stagnation and any minuscule polymerization products that form are not allowed to propagate.

Will polymerization occur in the lines? Yes. Polymerization is not oxidation. Polymerization is the chemical bonding and aggregation of the vo molecules into polymer sheets due to the action of reactive bonding sites on the molecules themselves caused by free radicals. This is a chain reaction, and the only way to stop it is to terminate these reactive ends with an antioxidant or chemical stabilizer. The presence of oxygen accelerates polymerization, as does heat and ionic metals. However, the residence time within the TIH is very short, the flow rate is high, and the fuel is consumed.

The lack of oxygen does not stop polymerization, but for all PRACTICAL purposes, the progression rate has been greatly reduced due to usage circumstances as to be of negligible importance. This MAY become a factor if the vo fuel system is to remain unused for long periods of time, and might cause accelerated filter plugging. However, it is generally good practice anyway to replace the filter if the vehicle has been stored for extended periods.

Dewatered vo stored in polymer barrels filled to the brim then sealed will still polymerize. No oxygen, no ionic metals, kept out of sunshine and stored in a cool dark place. It's still polymerizing. But the rate would be so low that it could take years to go bad. But it DOES go bad EVENTUALLY. Since there is no additional oxygen being added to that sealed drum of vo, then oxygen isn't actually necessary. It has been dewatered and there is no copper, yet it still goes bad EVENTUALLY. Those things are all accelerants. Polymerization is a chemical reaction that occurs naturally. It can be slowed down, but it cannot be stopped without the use of a neutralizing chemical agent.

You cannot stop polymerization, you can only slow it down. At the rate of polymerization inside a high flow copper fuel line or heat exchanger with no additive oxygen, where the fuel is going to be consumed within minutes by the engine, this minuscule amount of polymerization is of no practical importance. Any that are formed are scoured inside the lines by incoming fresh fuel that is also on its way to being consumed.

Copper inside a sloshing vented vo fuel tank: bad.
Vo flowing rapidly through the inside of a copper line: practically a non issue.
Heated vo in copper lines being returned to the tank: bad.

That is my understanding of it at this time.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
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Postby David » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:04 am

Burbarian wrote:
This is a chain reaction, and the only way to stop it is to terminate these reactive ends with an antioxidant or chemical stabilizer.


Do you know the name of the chemical(s) that one would look for in a given product that one could add to stop this polymerization?


If these chemicals were added to filtered, de watered oil and was stored in a plastic tank and sealed, would the life of the oil then become virtually indefinite?
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby Welder » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:45 am

David wrote:
Burbarian wrote:
This is a chain reaction, and the only way to stop it is to terminate these reactive ends with an antioxidant or chemical stabilizer.


Do you know the name of the chemical(s) that one would look for in a given product that one could add to stop this polymerization?


If these chemicals were added to filtered, de watered oil and was stored in a plastic tank and sealed, would the life of the oil then become virtually indefinite?




TBHQ
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:26 am

TBHQ and other chemicals to stop poly are covered in detail with links and research in the 1st post in the poly thread here:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:58 am

Burb, you nailed it brother. 8)

Yes, it is a triangle - more of a 4 legged stool as one friend calls it. BUT, it does not take all 4 legs to make it happen - like the fire analogy.

I admit I ain't real smart, but I think I understand a closed/open design. :roll:

I have copper fuel lines on my truck right now! :shock: They are directly before the the heads and ALL VO that touches them is CONSUMED a moment later. VO NEVER sits in them, ever. I'm sure they are as 'clean' as any other copper tubing you can show me.

I think some may not understand how this reaction works yet. NO, copper does not BANG make poly, neither does oxygen or heat. These factors all CONTRIBUTE to its production. In combination, they expedite the reaction. Bottom line - Polymerization begins a LOOOOOONG time before the chicken skin appears.

My point all along is that avoiding the ingredients known to cause the reaction is a better 'design'.

I've seen lots of people smoke cigarettes while pumping gas. Never saw anyone blow up (in person). Just because it hasn't happened to them yet is no justification to continue doing it. I feel that what some are doing is telling people 'its ok' to have a scientifically poor design, because 'it hasn't caused ME any trouble'. Copper in particular, has in fact caused many others trouble - albeit in different configurations.

Here's a link that describes some additives and why they work. They are protecting biodiesel from the same 'degradation' we are talking about here. (Same anti-chelating and anti-oxidents Sun discussed...)
http://www.jobwerx.com/news/Archives/la ... 9_848.html

Commercially, they are struggling to acheive an 'acceptable' shelf life for biodiesel even TODAY.

David, BMW - I'd love to hang out and drink beers w/y'all. I have no motivation here but to learn more. I realize that language like 'poor design' elicits a defensive response. My intent is to give beginners (I still consider myself one) at the least another perspective. My chemistry ain't great, if only I'd known what I could use it for back when I could have learned more... What chem knowlege I have on this subject is based on lessons I learned from a chemist who knows ALOT about VO. That combined w/what I have seen and touched since I started this experience.

Again, my point is simply why not avoid the ingredients for poly altogether? Its not difficult - and in copper vs alum - its cost effectitive as well.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby SkySkiJason » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:05 am

David wrote:
Burbarian wrote:If these chemicals were added to filtered, de watered oil and was stored in a plastic tank and sealed, would the life of the oil then become virtually indefinite?


Close, but maybe more important is thier ability to extend filter life SIGNIFICANTLY. I have seen this first hand, in my truck AND at a friends pre-filtering station AND his trucks.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby BMW Fan » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:43 pm

That thing is a chicken skin factory!

I very much appreciate if we can give beginners different views.
Based on theory but on experience, too. I'd like to be a little closer to reality.
Nevertheless I'd like to have a beer with you……….to wipe that chicken skin away :lol:

I would be 100% with you if all of your thoughts and reservations would target practical or impractical use of veggie as a fuel. Many things apply only to the food industry but not for the use of fuel. Closest to us are the Bio-Diesel suppliers and their storage problems.
The Bio-Diesel industry has to deal with this facts too and have developed special antioxidants which help to prolong storage.
Oxidation can not truly be prevented, but the process can be significantly slowed, by use of antioxidants. Antioxidants are compounds which interrupt the oxidation process by preferentially reacting with the fat radical to form a stable radical which does not quickly react with oxygen. Antioxidants serve to stall the propagation phase of the oxidation cycle. Antioxidants cannot "fix" oxidized materials. Antioxidants are virtually ineffective in retarding deterioration when added to already oxidized systems.
In addition, certain compounds are found to work with the antioxidant to further retard the oxidation process. The initiation phase of the oxidation process may be catalyzed by metal ions. Chelating agents bind metal ions making them unavailable for catalyzing the initiation phase, thus slowing oxidation process.

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