HHO generators Hydrogen or Browns gas injection

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Postby ROLLGUY » Sat May 10, 2008 4:17 pm

[quote="David"]Do you have a link to one of the computer controlled systems that do work such as the one you describe? I have never seen such a system advertised[/quote]


David,
check out: http://preignitioncc.com/information/
1980 AMC Eagle Turbodiesel Wagon (only 2 known to exist as of 2008)

3 Veg Oil powered Benz's ('80 300 SD, '82 300 CD, '85 190 D)

1983 GMC Van (6.2 Veg Oil Diesel)
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Postby David » Sat May 10, 2008 7:22 pm

Thank you Rollguy.

I checked out the site and in summary I can only say that I remain totaly unconvinced of anything other than that site is another scam.

When the page opened I was first thinking " Oh Ohhh! another pre made sales website"

I started reading a bit and saw there was some hope... They were talking about cracking the fuel which I know, with LPG at least does work. By preheating the gas enough to seperate it into is base components, the gas will actually burn hotter than what is would in its original composition. I have done it, it's easy to do and I have seen for myself the science is true.

Reading down a bit to see how they were going to do this with liquid fuel, I start seeing things about magnets and electrical reaction.... Oh oohh again! Reading down I see huge claims of savings and power increases and then down further still I see HOH ( or however you want to jumple the letters) machine that is supposed to generate 50-70L of gas per hour and pulls 15 amps. Yep! Been there, built one of those myself!

From building my own gas gen that macthed those specs exactly ( mine did 60L/hr of gas) 15 amps, I can say to a certainty that the amount of gas generated does not come withing a bulls roar of offsetting the extra fuel consumption caused by the drag on the engine from the alternator supplying the extra electricity to power the cell in the first place. In the multiple tests I did, I got a 11-16% DEFICIT in fuel consumption, not an increase. I even tried " Cheating" by supplying the power to the cell from a battery that wasn't connected to the electrical system to see if the gas itself would make any difference but on several engines I tested this with, I was unable to see any difference at all and I went to some trouble to use engines with fixed loads and very accurate fuel consumption measuring.

The gas generator these people use is nothing different to what most experimenters are making in their backyards, not even remotely like the " something out of the box" I was hoping to discover.

With these miracles in a box, the first thing that always strikes me is if these thing work, and are generally touted to be simple, why do the manufacturers fit them as standard? Car companies have huge R&D budgets and if they could come out with a car that got anything like the mileage these scam devices are supposed to achieve, they would tie the market up over night and put their competitors out of business or at very least, make an unimaginable fortune licensing them the technology.

Of course the reason they don't fit them OEM is because they don't work.
OR, if you are of the "conspiracy " persuasion, The reason is they are in cahoots with the oil companies and governments and the man on the moon who also has a vested interest in people using inefficient engines. :roll:

The only surprising thing I found on that site was how similar their product was to what I made myself. Their exaggerated and " Proven" ( by them only) claims came as no surprise at all and I found to be typical of these too good to be true products.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby denson » Sun May 11, 2008 4:08 pm

I also don't belive the 50% milelage claim, probaly exagerated a little after all they are trying to sell a product. However, I am very interested in the more complete combustion claim. Anything that can make diesel or veg. burn more complete is a good thing to explore. I am just a novice at this sort of thing and would love to see this thread discussed further.
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Postby David » Sun May 11, 2008 10:41 pm

I think the complete Combustion thing is a crock at least for realistic practical purposes. Diesel engines run for the most part in an over oxygen rich state. This mean that they are going to have all the air they need to burn the fuel they get and more. When at full throttle, they may be too rich on the fuel side ( as normally evidenced by black smoke) but as there are 2 hydrogen atoms and only one oxygen atom in the browns gas, the mixture is still going to be rich which isn't going to help anything.

In a diesel which has High compression and an abundance of air, I doubt there is much unburned fuel and if there is, I doubt this gas is going to help to any noticeable degree.
To achieve a 50% gas mileage increase, it would seem to me that you would have to achieve something like 70% better combustion to account for the mechanical, heat and other losses that occur in an engine. I don't believe for a minute that even an old design diesel is even 20% inefficient in it's combustion or you would have unburnt fuel dribbling out the tailpipe!
In the case of veg fuel engines, you wouldn't get round the corner before they coked up solid if their combustion was that bad! :roll:

Even it it were a linear efficiency, to think an engine was wasting 50% of its fuel by incomplete combustion is against anyones reasonable logic.
That being the case, where exactly is this miracle increase in mileage going to come from? If you go to the basics and find out how many BTU's are in 70L of Hydrogen gas and how many BTU's an engine either burns or requires to propel a vehicle a mile, you will see that the numbers are so far from adding up, no amount of BS excuses and fairy tale explanations could even come close to making up the gaping shortfall.

That's the trouble with these scam products and theory's, they just don't stand up when related to the well known and universally accepted laws of Physics, not to mention basic logic!

Of Course there will always be the people that want to believe in the tooth fairy and those that will also defend an idea with their true but flawed beliefs and these people will always try to discredit the detractors.
I am pretty sure there is no one that wouldn't like to get 50% better economy out of their vehicle the same as I am sure no one likes to get ripped off. I even went so far as to assume there was a tooth fairy and then get proof of that but of course there was none to be found because this stuff just plain doesn't live up to the basic physics or reality. :roll:
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
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Postby SunWizard » Mon May 19, 2008 4:39 pm

I agree with David, the complete combustion and the increased mileage claims are a scam. The placebo effect works well to make people think its better and they didn't waste their time and moeny. Here is a good analysis by an automotive engineer whose specialty is devices like this (and many other ways to save fuel that do work):
http://www.fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby ROLLGUY » Tue May 20, 2008 10:33 pm

[quote="SunWizard"]I agree with David, the complete combustion and the increased mileage claims are a scam. The placebo effect works well to make people think its better and they didn't waste their time and moeny. Here is a good analysis by an automotive engineer whose specialty is devices like this (and many other ways to save fuel that do work):
[url]http://www.fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm[/url][/quote]


Here is a quote (in part) from the above link : " The problem is that the rest of the engine needs to be optimised as well to get the benefits. More critically, the ability to burn a leaner mixture is only useful if the engine ECU is configured to inject a very lean air/fuel ratio, and manage the required variations in spark timing and fuelling (which current production vehicles, without exception, are not). Simply speeding up the burn, even if theoretically advantageous, is likely to make economy worse if the ignition timing is not adjusted to suit."

The following is exactly what the system that I have seen does. It is the ONLY way that any benefit can be had from a Hydrogen Assist system.


"More critically, the ability to burn a leaner mixture is only useful if the engine ECU is configured to inject a very lean air/fuel ratio, and manage the required variations in spark timing and fuelling"

I'll say it again "The only systems that are realy worth looking at are computer controlled, making adjustments to the timing, fuel injection etc. These systems are connected to the sensors(MAP,OXY, TPS,etc) BEFORE the cars ECU, and adjust the fuel and timing to take advantage of the faster burning HHO gas, therefore giving a more complete combustion, resulting in better fuel milage and less emissions. "
1980 AMC Eagle Turbodiesel Wagon (only 2 known to exist as of 2008)

3 Veg Oil powered Benz's ('80 300 SD, '82 300 CD, '85 190 D)

1983 GMC Van (6.2 Veg Oil Diesel)
One of the Thousands of happy Lovecraft customers
ROLLGUY
 
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Postby BMW Fan » Wed May 21, 2008 6:53 am

[quote=The following is exactly what the system that I have seen does. It is the ONLY way that any benefit can be had from a Hydrogen Assist system.
"[/quote]

Hello ROLLGUY,

I know a guy who swears that he has seen a combustion engine running completely, totally, under water for several hours.

Do I believe him ? NO I DO NOT.

David has given insight what he did and supported it with numbers.

I myself was under the impression to get a cleaner burn on Listeroids.
Did I get more power, definitely no.

Would you mind to tell as your experience, not rumors or ferry tales ?

BMW Fan

http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby David » Wed May 21, 2008 7:01 am

ROLLGUY wrote:I'll say it again "The only systems that are realy worth looking at are computer controlled, making adjustments to the timing, fuel injection etc. These systems are connected to the sensors(MAP,OXY, TPS,etc) BEFORE the cars ECU, and adjust the fuel and timing to take advantage of the faster burning HHO gas, therefore giving a more complete combustion, resulting in better fuel milage and less emissions. "


While there is an element in truth to the theroy of this statement, it dosen't apply here.

What we are talking about to get the increase in mileage is an increase in efficency.... IE , a reduction of waste. Again it comes back to the question of where are you going to get 50 or even 25% better mileage from.
Are these people Saying that in excess of even 25% of the fuel going into an engine is being wasted?

I'll grant that there are likely small improvements to be had by a very careful tune of an individual engine but as there is not anywhere near the energy available from the gas itself to account for these improvements, the implication is that the best the manufacturers best tuning effort still left 25% ++ inefficiency in the engine! I would think a backyard mechanic could do better than that just by seat of the pants feel. I multi million dollar corporation with almost unlimited resources and untold experience in this area I would think could get it a damn site better than that!!

I have to wonder how they got away with that in respect of other manufacturers Who either all have to make the same mistakes or how one manufacturer was able to sell a vehicle with such poor comparative mileage. I also wonder how, with that much unburnt fuel going out the tail pipe, such a vehicle was able to meet the demands of the emissions standards?

And that is the problem with these sorts of claims, they don't stand up to basic and everyday scrutiny of related issues.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby WD8CDH » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:28 pm

At the best, using hydrogen injection would improve a gasoline engine to aproach a diesel engine efficiency IF it was "reprogramed" to lean burn/open throttle and it's associated advantages of less pumping losses, AND/OR the compression ratio was increased to diesel engine levels. Minus alternator load of course.

Without the engine modifications, in the real world, mileage improvements with hydrogen injection in are primarily from two things:

1. Subconsiously driving in a more economical manner.

2. Changing the flame propogation delay to compensate for an improperly timed motor.

In a diesel, improvements would be similar to propane injection.

By the way injecting just about ANY combustable gas or liquid into the intake of a diesel creating a lean but not compression ignitable mixture will usually improve fuel economy a little. In the past, I have used alchohol, paint thinner, gasoline, propane, butane, MAPP gas, natural gas, citronela oil, and even diesel fuel.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:45 pm

New information: the FTC is now cracking down on the HHO hydrogen fuel electrolysis scams out there and shutting them down. Its about time. Here is a good article about this:
HHO-update-Dennis-Lee-out-of-business
There has now been enough science done on this subject to declare it a complete scam and prosecute, there is lots of discussion about this at that site: The Engineer's place for News and Discussion.
Here is another good read about this:
The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby David » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:03 am

As much as I have shot these things down in the past, I wonder why I bother?

If people are that inherently stupid and ignorant not to do their own research and find facts for themselves, why the heck am i wasting my time trying to stop them wasting their money?

I'm also wondering about starting up a site to peddle these things myself.
As i understand the consumer laws here, ( and I don't claim to be an expert) a vendor is basically limited to refund or replacement of a product if it doesn't live up to the claims made.

It would seem if I am careful with my claims and offer a refund to anyone that isn't happy with their purchase, I am not in breach of any laws.
I don't know how it works in other parts of the world. Perhaps refunds are not enough?

I was thinking that i need not make any claims at all about what the product does. Simply say something like " You know how long these things have been around, you know what they do, here's you chance to get one at a rock bottom price" and go from there.

If you didn't make a claim as to what the thing would do in the first place, it would be hard to claim it didn't work!
" I'm not happy with the machine, It didn't get an improvement in mileage"
" Of course you didn't, we never said you would! We sell them for aesthetic and decorative purposes only"
:lol:

I have come to the conclusion that some people deserve to be scammed and it may actually be doing them a service. If they get stung on something like this, it may wake them up a bit and prevent them from being so stupid again forking over their life savings to buy the Sydney Harbour or Brooklyn bridges which would really screw them and potentialy their families around.

It would be a cheap lesson if you ask me and the more they pay for a hohoho gas machine, the more waking up they needed so only fair they pay more for a more comprehensive lesson. :roll:
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby SunWizard » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:59 am

David wrote:As much as I have shot these things down in the past, I wonder why I bother?

If people are that inherently stupid and ignorant not to do their own research and find facts for themselves, why the heck am i wasting my time trying to stop them wasting their money?

The trouble even occurs when smart people do a little research on them, they find the exaggerated marketing hype which can be convincing. I did a google for hho generator, and got 228,000 links. 135,000 people search on HHO each month, 27,000 search on WVO, while only 880 search on HHO scam. Even the smart may never find sites like this one and a few others which show what a scam these devices are. The truth is massively drowned out by the scams since many of them are multi-level marketing. At least now we have some gov. agency making a small dent in the scams which were allowed to run free like in the old snake oil days.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: HHO generators Hydrogen or Browns gas injection

Postby Budholeo » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:57 pm

where do I start.... first of no it is not a scam, I registered for this site just now just so I could add my 2 cents and experiences....

So I got into the alternative fuels first by trying hho and then discovering wvo, I tried a simple submerged unit I home made for cheap on a 1991 toyota camry with a 2.0l engine and went from an average of 30-32 to 34-38 plus better performance. then added it to a 1983 ford truck with a gasoline inline 300cid 6 cylander and went from 14-18mpg to 16-20mpg. afterwards I did quite a bit of research and went to wvo and put my hho on hiatis... then when I had time I added it to both my ford with an international 6.9l diesel and then to my 5.9l cummins...
what i discovered was the gasoline engines (especially computer controlled) required lots of tuning but my diesels loved any amount, no tuning and the more the better... I did not have a nice "dry cell" hho generator for the ford diesel so could only get another 1-3 mpg but it made it a lot easier to start with a shot of hho in the intake....
then with the cummins I borrowed my friends nice dry cell with 31 plates and over cranked it and over heated it by adding way too much power and got very very impressive results, I put the most miles in it and had the best baseline mpg with it so it made it even more impressive to me... I started with 17mpg on average, went to california from washington with a 24' trailer heavily loaded and averaged 16, then went back down with no trailer and got 18, same time of year, same rout ect.. (all on pure wvo) then when adding hho I got nearly 25mpg on average while doing daily driving and a moderate trip around the pacific northwest before I overheated the unit and had to turn it off... (a larger hho unit or less power would have prevented that)
my friends have tried several experiments with home made "submerged" cells (jars or pvc tubes with stainless steel) like what you see on ebay ect and they are low efficiency units, to really benefit you want a dry cell unit!
like with the mythbusters if you just mess around with small amounts created inefficiently ya you won't get much results, but if you use a proper (and slightly spendy) unit and get close to 60-80% efficiency it will not only give you better mpg but it also increases horsepower, exhaust temperatures, and all kinds of emissions reductions. No, i do not work for anybody, I just have used this site for very good info (specifically I used and loved the delevan home heating oil rig) and thought I should try and offer what research I have done...
there are several sources I have used...

http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/PROOF_s/34.htm
I especially liked the university of Perdue and the Austrailian study
this site also offers quality dry cell units for a very reasonable price

http://www.youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel

if people still want to shoot me down after reading this and a couple of the links on greenfuel I will post again trying to more completely state my case...
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Re: HHO generators Hydrogen or Browns gas injection

Postby David » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:44 am

Sorry but like all the tooth fairy believers you are talking complete and utter crap.

Just as the pattern always goes you are giving totaly unsubstantiated fairy tales that defy Physics with the mileage you are getting.
for one thing you are talking 1-2 road trips. These are unscientific and can be influenced by a myriad of outside factors.
I took my own vehicle for a 300 KM trip the week before last. I averaged 16L/ 100KM. The trip before that I averaged 12 Km/l. I can discern no difference in the load on the vehicle, speed or anything else. It could be as simple as the wind was blowing the right way last time and the wrong way this time. It would take more trips over a longer period of time and conditions to establish any kind of meaningful baseline for consumption.

I did find a copy of the report the Uni of south Australia did that wasn't hidden behind some spam site.

You hold this out as proof that HHO gas works, I hold it out as proof of the sort of crap people like yourself talk about this Hydrogen rubbish.
Firstly, it's just a thesis done by a student. Granted its a lot better than the usual unverified miracle stories of no substantiation at all but it's far from a complete scientific test and it's certainly not done by, endorsed as fact or supported by the uni in any way. It's no more than one Students project.

The real tell in this story is that if you actually read the paper, the HHO was supplied by an outside machine that was a portable mains powered oxygen generator that produced 20L of gas a MINUTE. The load of the HHO being generated was not being taken up by a 50% efficient alternator which would have substantial drag on the engine. I Built a hohoho gas machine that did 1L of gas a minute and that caused noticeable drag on the industrial motor I tested it on.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I didn't build if right using a left handed braffanator oscillating impulse plasma coil the would run on farts and rainbows like the ones as always the excuse when anyone says they didn't pull a miracle out of their backside with this stupidity.
The electrical load a 20L a MINUTE machine would require would be substantial.

And please don't give me the low voltage, high amperage/ frequency/ pulsed with modulation crap either. a watt is a watt and with an IC engine driving the average claw pole alternator, you are going to have to feed in pretty much 5 units of fuel energy to get out one unit of electrical energy which will produce -Maybe- 1/4-1/2 unit of gas energy. A watt is a watt and voltage and amperage are irrelevant.

There is no surprise, miracle or proof in supplying an internal combustion engine a supply of flammable gas and recording a reduction in liquid fuel consumption.
I could feed the same engine 20l a min of LPG, acetylene, Methane, Propane, or any other flammable gas and get the same or better result. Your "Proof" test even says that at the start referring to compressed gas cylinders. The trick which has yet to be conclusively demonstrated and proven to any recognised institution and can be made repeatable is to produce that gas onboard a vehicle over the course of its normal use and THEN show a reduction in fuel consumption.

IF you have done this ( which I'll outright state you have not just like no one else has) why have you not taken your vehicle and system to a university or other recognised authority for them to test and verify your results to the disbelievers like me?
Why has no one else done it? I'll tell you, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK!

Holding out skewed and unrealistic tests and trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes with them just proves the untrustworthiness and bunk these claims are full of. IF nothing else, do you not reckon if people at universities and other places could make this work they would not be repeating the demonstration and selling the technology?

Yes I have been rude and abrupt in my reply but insulting peoples intelligence with these fraudulent claims and dishonest deception require a level of respect in reply I have well exhausted a long time ago.

People like yourself that make these claims at very least are completely ignorant and at worst fraudulent and liars.

YES, it is a scam and a crock of shite and a load of baloney. IF you want to believe in it, thats up to you but please don't try to convince me of your crap with meaningless anecdotes and irrelevant and skewed tests you hold out as proof.

It's just proof what a load of crap this hohoho ideas really is.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

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