Water Injection

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby Jake Palmer » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:14 am

hmm

I see what you mean... an intake manifold with long runner might work better than a standard one:
Image

Just the same, I wonder if I could install small foggers on the two ports at each end. I really don't have time this summer to get into tracking down & swapping intake manifolds etc, esp. when I should really be swapping out the engine.

I don't have a compression tester, but the engine is coming out in a month or two, so a photographed autopsy would be the plan. It would be awesoem if I could REALLY get those rings coked up... I think they've already started.

If someone was able to point out EXACTLY which foggers to use (for individual cylinders on a 1.6), I could do this in the next couple weeks. I'd up teh fuelling, keep the veg cold and beat the hell out of it for a couple months.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:25 am

Injecting into the air cleaner is much easier to set up than trying to tap the manifold in 2 places.

A compression check would be needed to tell if the rings were the cause of your worsening performance or not. And it would tell if the water injection fixed it.

If you add WI and at teardown the head is really clean and the rings remain coked, that tells us something. If at teardown the rings are OK, that doesn't tell us much since we don't know of they ever were coked. Since low compression could be due to worn cylinders, rings, valves, guides, instead of ring coking.
Last edited by SunWizard on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby David » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:26 am

Radrick wrote:What do you use for water? How pure does it need to be?


I just use tap water as in Sydney it is mineral free and quite good to drink. If a person lived in an area that had heavy mineralization in the water supply, I would be catching rain water off the roof to use or a supply of water that didn't have any minerals in it.

If a person used mineralized water, being there is a fair amount of water evaporating in the manifold, I think you would run in to problems pretty quick with buildup and then chunks of rock like material trying to go through the engine. Not good.

Jake Palmer wrote:
Any time I take apart an engine that had a bad headgasket, it gets me thinking about WI. You see one or two pistons and combustion chambers (on gas car) that are SPOTLESS, and the others have thick, ugly carbon deposits.


This is exactly what triggered me to install a WI system. I was at the mechanic's for the annual rego check and he was doing a head gasket on a car there. Two cylinders looked like thay had almost been polished. He commented it was always easy to see where the gasket had blown and that no one could ever tell him Water injection didn't clean out an engine.
He is an open minded but very down to earth guy and said he had used it as long as he could remember on his supercharged race boats he was into
and that he could get away with things other people never could and could never figure out how he did.

Seeing how clean those couple of pots on that engine were and the rest had visible layers of carbon on the piston tops was as much convincing as I needed.

I noticed a W124 merc has individual manifold runners and was thinking that a WI system on one of these engines would have to be a bit more elaborate so if a car had individual runners you may be able to do the cylinder comparison. If not, I would strongly suggest if you think your engine is carboning up, by all means try the WI. You may bring the engine well back to life and save yourself some time and money on a replacement... And prove the value of WI for the non believers!

:D
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Postby Jake Palmer » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:45 am

Well the engine was weak to start with, and I have a 1.9aaz turbodiesel waiting to go in. This would be purely for the sake of science. It's too bad, I actually just sold a long runner 1.6 manifold.

I wonder if I put one small WI nozzle on ONE port at either end...

Who can help me size a WI nozzle for ONE port on a vw 1.6. Where can I get a nozzle? I'll do this if someone can help point me in the right direction. I have to throw a couple glow plugs in soon, so I can do this then.

I'll do horrible things to the engine to accelerate coking. Like idle it for 30 minutes at a time with cold veggie, with the fueling cranked up
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Postby David » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:45 pm

For a comparison on that engine I'd only be putting one nozzle on one end of the manifold as I think doing one on each end is going to give the middle 2 cylinders a pretty good squirt anyway. It's less likely quite as much will make it down the other end ( although I would still expect some water to make it to all cylinders) especially if you position the nozzle directly in front of the port so it is firing straight onto the valve.

The water amount shouldn't vary for one cylinder because if the nozzle were firing into the manifold inlet, each cylinder just takes a gulp of what is there in turn rather than it actually being divided all up at once. For safetys sake ( and what a change not to have to be too worried about that!) I'd run around 100Ml/ minute. I don't know of any nozzles you could use in this application because the mounting will have to be rather direct and probably very confined. Maybe some fogging nozzles from a farm supply place can be used but I don't know what you have over there brand wise to make a suggestion.

What I am thinking is you may get away with a small ( 1/8 -1/16") piece of tube just aimed at the port through the manifold. I have dribbled a stream of water into inlets before and seen how the airstream breaks the water up and although the path in this app would be much shorter, it still should have an effect anyway. Given an amount will be just sitting behind the valve till it opens, it may well just be boiled to steam by the hot valve and achieve perfect atomization anyway. The rest of the port will be 80oC + so this will also aid in evaporation. The combustion chamber will take care of the rest.

You can get small brass tube from Hobby shops and you may have to buy a few larger pieces to sleeve and solder it together to build up the external diameter to easily fit some washer or similar hose from the pump. You can probably just crimp the tube a little if you have to in order to get the flow rate right. Mount the tube in the manifold by drilling a small hole and using some silicone or JB weld type compound.

Certainly this won't be as Ideal as a nozzle but I have no doubt for the sake of testing, it will produce results that will show the value of the WI or not. If it will clean a cylinder it this crude form, you know it will work done properly with a spray nozzle.

Certainly hope you can make this test come to fruition because it would be of great interest to a lot of veggers in warding off the great coking threat and open up a whole range of new possibilities for veg use. If you Idle the car for long periods, make sure you take it for a decent drive with your foot down enough to make sure there is some decent amount of water put through afterward to have a chance at cleaning everything up again.
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:45 pm

well how many cylinders do you have open via open intake valves sucking in air/fuel/H2O from the intake manifold while your squirting water? What.... two, followed by two miliseconds later? (yeah I know I should no this)

Anway.... if Im thinking right... odds are over time you will hit all the cylinders with water vapor no matter where the injector nozzle is since the mixture in the manifold is sucked into the cylinders and there is no way you will be timing your squirt to occur at same intake valve opening each time.
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Postby Jake Palmer » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:10 am

BUT, if I only used the WI at high RPMs when there is a lot of air flow in the manifold, there is a chance I can keep the mist -relatively- isolated to one or two cylinders. And really, I'll know if it worked or not when I pull the head. I'm pulling it apart anyway, so there is no loss.

The other alternative is if someone has access to a long-runner intake for a VW i4. Gas or diesel will work.

Otherwise, I just need a hand finding an appropriate nozzle/pump. David, what you described interests me, but may take more time than I can really commit to setting this up. I would really like to find something "off the shelf" that I can just mount into the manifold.

Given that I'm not looking for a lot of flow, would I just use another windshield washer pump?
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Postby Jake Palmer » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:44 am

OK, I've re-read David's post, and this is my plan:

(condensed)

David wrote:

I'd only be putting one nozzle on one end of the manifold

position the nozzle directly in front of the port so it is firing straight onto the valve.

run around 100Ml/ minute

a small ( 1/8 -1/16") piece of tube just aimed at the port through the manifold... the airstream breaks the water up

You can get small brass tube from Hobby shops and you may have to buy a few larger pieces to sleeve and solder it together to build up the external diameter to easily fit some washer or similar hose from the pump. You can probably just crimp the tube a little if you have to in order to get the flow rate right. Mount the tube in the manifold by drilling a small hole and using some silicone or JB weld type compound.

If you Idle the car for long periods, make sure you take it for a decent drive with your foot down enough to make sure there is some decent amount of water put through afterward to have a chance at cleaning everything up again.


I just need to find some thin brass tube.

I will actually run the tube right into the port in the head... there's a clear path.

What should I use for a pump. Will a windshield washer pump work in this (crude) application?
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Postby coachgeo » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:50 pm

one way to have adjustability is to use needels from a syringe. You can epoxy them into a brass fitting. If you want to change the spray you just have to expoxy a different size needle into another fitting and screw it on in place of the first one.
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Postby Jake Palmer » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:02 pm

Brilliant! I'll just raid one of those safe needle drop-off boxes downtown!

Seriously, great idea. I think I'll go that route
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Postby David » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:45 pm

Hi Jake,

I don't know how off the shelf you are going to get anything as it is all pretty custom. No one would normally want to add WI to just one cylinder but if you want to do the whole engine, I'm sure things would be different.

I think a windshield washer pump would be more than adequate for an engine of the size you have, 1 cylinder or feeding the entire manifold. My car is a 3L and the washer pump is entirely adequate for that. I'd go for a large bore Hypo, the amount of water you can put in a diesel is surprising and those Hypo needles are Pretty small.

If you use fishtank size hose from the washer bottle as I did, you can get little valves from the aquarium shop to regulate the water flow. There are cheapie plastic ones and better made brass ones that work well in this application.
You need anything adjustable as such, you would only need to back the water off which is unlikely using a hypo I think but just a thought.

I was looking at some of the WI company websites to see if they had anything that could be used for an " off the shelf " setup for this application. Those People have to be kidding on the prices they charge don't they???
Obviously there are too many gear heads around with waaay too much money and far to little DIY ability!!!! Combine that with some slick Marketing Hype and you have a real money for nothing spinner there! :o

The premixed water /meth fluid was a ripper money spinner. Apparently, people can't add 51% water to some methanol. The premixed stuff does come in a nice funky red cool ade color but I'm still at a loss as to why you would have to buy 51% water instead of mixing it in yourself and being real different and making up some Blue boost juice with some food colouring if you needed the stuff to be coloured? Maybe things are different in other parts but here at least, you don't buy water cheaper than what you get it from the tap! :roll:

Let us know how you go Jake! :D
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Postby 240Volvo » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:48 pm

HI, David

Do you have any idea what the flow rate of the nozzle that you are using might be? System sellers have anywhere from .75GPM to 4 GPM. Any suggestions on how to judge whether the flow rate is too high or low (or just right)? I am going to do this on my volvo, so I am looking for parts.

Thanks!
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby David » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:18 am

The nozzle/ pump combination I am using gives 300Ml/min.

NFI what that is in gallons but I'm thinking that is a LOT less than .75 GPM which I believe is something like 2850 ml which sounds waaaay too high. 4GPM = 15.2L... over a bucket and a half of water... A minute??? Perhaps this rating is an Hour not a minute? Either that or your looking at Nozzles designed for 100,000HP engines in container ships? :D

I an not sure that there is a way to tell if you are using too little water without inspecting the engine internals to see if they are clean. If the engine looses power when the WI kicks in, that is too much water. I have read that a diesel engine will digest 9 times more water than fuel and I think that may be on the conservative side.

I suggest just setting up the WI and if it doesn't take the edge of the performance, don't worry about it. If the engine does back off, use a smaller nozzle. As a ballpark figure, if your car is non turbo, I'd be aiming around 200Ml/ minute. If it's a turbo, Add 50%, 300Ml/min.


If you are going to use meth, start off low and work your way up. I could use 50% before but now I detect nailing. Obviously something in the engine has changed because now the old girl is happier on 40% meth.
Test your own engine and see what you can get away with.
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I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:27 am

I have no experience using Water Injection myself yet.
Wondering where and how to inject I came across some nice pictures and understandable explanations.

Positioning The Water Methanol Injection Nozzle
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/ ... _info.html

BMW Fan

http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby 240Volvo » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:29 am

David, how about the 4GPM? sounds insane.

Thanks for the link, Klaus. I would be curious what nozzle you would use.
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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