Water Injection

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Water Injection

Postby sacveggieguy » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:05 pm

Is anyone using water injection. I remember hearing all the benefits of carbon removal and nice clean combustion chambers. How come I dont hear lots of us using should this not help coking probs.

Thanks Paul aka Sacveggieguy
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:12 am

Yes some are using it. See:
This thread on infopop

But it doesn't remove coking from the ring area where its the biggest problem.
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:25 am

I'm sorry, I just cannot read that dribbol anymore, some are SO full of themselves.
Thanks for condencing 9 pages into 14 words
"But it doesn't remove coking from the ring area where its the biggest problem."

Dribbol=leakie injectors, they may work, but will be damaging in the long run
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Postby David » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:06 am

Since I'm one of the main contributors to that thread ( DCS) maybe I'm one of the main Dribbol'ers that is full of themselves?

In any case, I'm still running WI a year after most of that thread was written and I believe in it's benefits maybe more than I did then. Wether it removes coking from the ring area I'm not sure, I haven't pulled a piston from my engine to say for sure but I find it highly likely that over time it is a real possibility. If the oil can get there to coke the rings in the first place, the steam from the water can certainly permeate to the same area to remove any buildup. I'm certain that even if it doesn't remove coking from that area, I have every possible confidence it would at least prevent it.

My car now starts easier ( can start on cold oil where it never would before) runs smoother and quieter and has what feels like double the get up and go ( not that it still amount to much) than what it had before. Given I have done nothing other than set the valves 12 months ago, I'm convinced the WI has done a lot of good for my engine and I wouldn't have a veg car without it.

As an overall average, I calculated that I am injecting 10% water for the fuel I use Overall. Obviously it's use is intermittent but I calculated the 10% based on a monthly basis of 250L of Fuel and 25L of water being put in the car.

I am 110% sold on WI and while I haven't cracked the engine to have a look see, the improvement I have experienced since installing it on my car tells me It has done plenty of good for my car and is more than worth the $20 and 60 minutes I spent on installing it.
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water injection

Postby sacveggieguy » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:24 pm

David I am interested in running water inj can you tell me more about your system what you used where i can get it and how much? Or did you build it yourself which i wouldnt mind doing my self.

Thanke Paul aka Sacveggieguy
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:12 pm

david said,
"Since I'm one of the main contributors to that thread ( DCS) maybe I'm one of the main Dribbol'ers that is full of themselves?"

I dont think so, should I check? I was talking about the naa sayers, and the closed minds.

personally I'd like to do some injection on my soon-to-be veggie truck.

I'm looking forward to your answers to the last post.

LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

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Postby Radrick » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:59 pm

David
I too am very interested in using water injection on my truck. I would like to see more details on your system. I read the post when it originally was being writen but do not want to try to weed out all the bs to get to the info on your current system. If I remember correctly your system was a work in progress threw the duration of that post and the current system is somewhat scattered threw it. Could you provide us with a detailed summary of the system and the operation of it? Would it still be benificial of you only operated it periodicly instead of full time? If I remember correctly you commented that you thought it would. Thanks
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby coachgeo » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:57 pm

Radrick wrote:David
.... I would like to see more details on your system..... Would it still be benificial of you only operated it periodicly instead of full time? If I remember correctly you commented that you thought it would. Thanks
This is from his post just up above. Sorta answeres your questions

David wrote:....As an overall average, I calculated that I am injecting 10% water for the fuel I use Overall. Obviously it's use is intermittent.....
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Postby David » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:10 pm

My setup is unchanged from the first " Proof of concept" design I first made. It's proved itself to me so I never bothered trying to change it ! :D

I built the system myself out of stuff I had lying around the shed. All I have is washer Bottle off a GM car ( Monaro in the US I think) squirting through a plastic garden Micro mist Nozzle that I got from the hardware store or K-Mart. It is a full circle Mist type that screws into 1/4" line for watering hanging ferns and the like.

The water is activated when I put my foot to the floor ( which is very often in my non turbo Merc) and hit the auto kickdown switch and is therefore only a part time system.
I drilled a small hole that is a snug fit for the Fishtank type plastic tube through the lid on the aircleaner housing and position the spray nozzle ( which I wire tied to the tube) right above the inlet in the manifold.

The spray nozzles are not exactly the fog generators a lot of more expensive systems create but for my primary purpose of cleaning the engine, I don't believe it is necessary. From what I have observed on both my car and my stationary Diesels I have played with the water on, The air stream itself significantly breaks up and evaporates the water before it even gets to the cylinder. I also think that fog generating systems may be counter productive in many setups because as the tiny droplets follow the inlet tract on many vehicles, I believe the fog size droplets would collide together and hit parts of the inlet tract and condense together to form much larger droplets. Admittedly, given the choice of a finer spray if it was available at the same cost, I would go with that but the thing is I do not believe it is absolutely essential and that the low pressure spray from the washer pump and garden spray nozzle is perfectly and completely adequate for my purposes and has proved itself so. There are metal fogging nozzles available for chook shed humidification etc which I believe some will operate satisfactorily and washer bottle pressures.

The system sprays around 300CC/Min of water when activated and I believe this is probably close to the upper limit of what an engine of this power output will take without knocking off the power. In tests I did, with straight water only I got a 3/4 sec improvement in the 0-60KM/H time. With 50% methanol, the 0-60 Km/h run was 2.75 sec quicker. This translates to a noticeable extra push in the back from the extra power and makes the car so much more drivable from it's normal ( but not abnormal for the model) wheezing lack luster performance. I generally only use the meth when I take the old girl on long highway trips although as little as 10% meth adds noticeable pep to off the lights performance around town.

I don't use a one way valve between the pump and the nozzle because the one I had caused too much restriction and I have the tank well below the height of the nozzle anyway so any siphoning goes back to the tank, not into the engine. One guy here set up a WI with the tank higher than the nozzle and siphoned several litres of water into his engine and then started it. I believe the result was 3 bent rods. You can use cutoff solenoids and one way valves etc but the simplest way to prevent siphoning is to keep the tank below the level of the nozzle.

I am currently building a system for a friend for his Turbo Diesel Mitsubishi Triton Ute. Being a manual, I will be using a Hobbs pressure switch to activate the WI. To get past the problem of the boost pressure and not having to use a sealed container with a pressure feed from the turbo side to cancel the boost, I an just going to use a 35PSI Diaphragm pump and use a small valve with as a bleed to adjust the water flow. I will measure the peak boost and then set the pressure switch fairly high up before it trips. Turbos can make full boost at low revs and I'm not sure how safe it is to add water when the engine isn't spinning up and making a lot of internal turbulence.

Full time WI is not needed and I believe it is more likely to be potentially more detrimental and without doubt cause more problems than what it would solve by a very long margin. The intermittent spray of my system has made great improvements to the way my car performs in the very simple ( agricultural) Cheap and Basic form that it is. Others may like to go for more expensive and complicated systems but that doesn't take away from the fact that a very basic, cheap system will do the job perfectly well as my system which is now 16months old proves.
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Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby 240Volvo » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:35 pm

Hi, David

I remember reading your test results on this and being intrigued. Still am. I don't understand a couple of things, though. If I recall correctly, I thought that this was only possible in a turbo, but you don't mention if your car is or not. Can you clarify? Also, I do not understand what you are using to create the pressure that sprays the water. You said how it is triggered (which I also don't quite understand), but not what is aerisolizing the water from your GM tank/bottle.

Thanks!
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby David » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:48 am

240Volvo wrote:Hi, David

I don't understand a couple of things, though. If I recall correctly, I thought that this was only possible in a turbo, but you don't mention if your car is or not. Can you clarify?


Not sure what you think is only Possible... extra performance? The car is non Turbo which I thought I had mentioned. Turbo or not, WI works well and has extra benefits on turbos.

Also, I do not understand what you are using to create the pressure that sprays the water. You said how it is triggered (which I also don't quite understand), but not what is aerisolizing the water from your GM tank/bottle.


The washer bottle has a built in 12V pump. All I did was pull it out of the other car and connect the water hose for the WI where the hose for the windscreen washer squirter's would hook up. The pump on these bottles is actually a VDO type unit and I have seen accelerated endurance tests on these which shows they would last a very, very long time. They are on other cars as well like Peugeot's, Volvo's and others.

The Triggering of the system is done through the Auto Kickdown Switch. A lot of Automatic cars have a switch under the throttle pedal. When you mash it to the floor, the pedal hits a switch which activates a solenoid in the transmission which forces it back a cog ( or 2) so the engine revs come up and the car accelerates much faster than what it would in the higher gear. All my GM cars over the years have used this system but some makes use cables and Vacuum as well.

On the Mercs, The switch is hot ( electrically) so I just wired the Pump directly across it. The draw of the pump is low and hasn't exceeded the circuit rating so I didn't even bother with a relay to the Pump.
As the Merc is driven a lot of the time at full throttle, When the pedal is flat to the floor the Water injection pump is activated. This gives the engine some extra power ( especially if the water bottle has 50% meth in it) and also seems to smooth out the engine somewhat.

I noticed a Big difference in the way the engine ran after only a few hours running with the WI and the improvements continued subtlety but noticeably for many months before tapering off. I take it this was the initial bulk of the engine deposits and crap being cleaned out and then the process continuing to work on the remaining deposits thereafter.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
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Location: Sydney Australia

Postby 240Volvo » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:08 am

David,

Thanks so much from clearing this up for me. Your explanation and innovative applications are inspiring. My Volvo mechanic has a lot of parts cars, maybe I can find a bottle of my own! It would be nice to have a little extra power on this heavy old beast, especially as my right foot rests most comfortably flat on the floor. Better mileage, too? Wow, thanks!
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby Radrick » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:57 am

What do you use for water? How pure does it need to be?
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby Jake Palmer » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:59 am

This is a great thread.

Any time I take apart an engine that had a bad headgasket, it gets me thinking about WI. You see one or two pistons and combustion chambers (on gas car) that are SPOTLESS, and the others have thick, ugly carbon deposits.

Hmmm I wonder how hard it would be to rig up WI on just TWO cylinders on the 1.6td "mule" engine in my samurai. It is showing signs of ring coking. I could accelerate it by increasing the fueling, and running even colder veg.

It would be very cool if I could see the diff on two cylinders/pistons that HAD WI, and two that didn't in the same engine. The engine is coming out in a couple months anyway....
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:03 am

Sounds like a fun science project since you have an engine almost gone anyway.
I don't think you can do it for just 2 cylinders, since once water vapor is in the manifold it will spread due to scavenging effects even if you injected on 1 end of the manifold.

You could do a compression check on it, then add water injection, then when (if) the performance appears to have improved, do another compression check. And if the compression improves a good amount it would probably be due to removing some ring coking. Do you have a compression tester?
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