HiH/TiH vs HoH

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

HiH/TiH vs HoH

Postby Jake Palmer » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:30 am

With the availability of cheap & reliable FPHEs, I really don't understand why people bother with TiH/HiH. It's bulky, it's a pain to install and it's risky. I've had bothe HiH and HoH, and I actually got HOTTER fuel with HoH.

Smeetimes I wonder if peopel use HiH because they SAW it and it seems to make sense... MORE HEAT... but with an FPHE you don't really NEED more heat.

thoughts?
Jake Palmer
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: New Brunswick

Postby BMW Fan » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:00 am

I can only second what you are saying.
But, you got an advantage over the "beginners".
You did several conversion and you are able to compare.
Hands on experience instead of theory.

Klaus
BMW Fan
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:06 am

HoH is fine for many climates and types of plumbing, but like so many things in VO, it depends.

HoH is more bulky, you have more hoses to run, and to insulate, but that's minor. My TiH couldn't have been easier to install. There is no way an equal length of HoH can put out more heat than TiH, thats simple thermodynamics. You must have insulated better.

Whether you need more heat depends on how you have it plumbed and where your FPHE is. Unless you have 2 FPHE, the extra heat of my TiH is very needed on my rig to help cold VO to flow through my filter. Since my FPHE is just before the IP, where it is needed the most, it doesn't help get it through the VO filter.

Frybrid uses TiH for years and hundreds of installs, and is considered the best kit for cold climates. I haven't read any threads of people having leaks in their TiH. Have you seen any reports of the TiH failing?

Greasecar HiH is bad, but for other reasons, since they use poor connections, some inside the fuel tank. And they use Pex inner hose, which I have seen and read about many leaks on.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby VegMeister » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:09 pm

I'm kind of a beginner here. But this is my experience with my HoH. (1) You don't need HiH for any climate, and ANY kind of lard like oil. What good is having piping hot fuel lines if the heated pickup hasn't melted a puddle of oil? (2) FPHE is not just a matter of easier and cleaner and smaller, it's also better design: you're only heating up what you need, RIGHT before you filter it. In my case my FPHE is 12" before the filter and 18" before the IP.

Anyways, as someone who lives in the coldest midwest temps and regularly visits family and friends in the sub-arctic I think that HiH is totally unnecessary. I'll let you know if I have problems with my system if I get some -50F weather next year.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
VegMeister
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Pembine, WI

Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:58 pm

It depends on how you have it plumbed, its an area with options which you don't spell out. With your filter after your FPHE, then you don't need TiH, but you are running for the first 5 miles after switchover on VO that is not anywhere near 160F. This is the critical time, and this is why my FPHE is the last thing before the IP on my rig.

I have done tests of the temps of my wrapped filter. It is wrapped with 3/8" ID hose, Dana style, tightly installed full height, 7" tall, 3.5" dia. Cim-tek filter. 80F ambient, 60F VO in filter at start. I have confirmed my IR thermometer is accurate by repeated tests: pulling back my pipe insulation and it matches my inline temp guage right after the FPHE.

At 4 miles my coolant hit 190F, when I normally switch over. Filter VO temp was 80F. The FPHE VO temp was 170F. I delayed my switch to VO as a test to see how hot the coolant wrap would get the VO. This was summer, in the winter, the first quart of VO coming out of that filter would be very cold. You should be careful since your stanadyne IP is known to be very sensitive to cold VO.

At 20 miles the VO in my wrapped filter was 100F. Many of my trips are only 20 miles, so I would get no VO use if I waited that long. Switching at 4 miles I get at least 75% of the trip on VO. The coolant in the wrap hasn't been hot for long at switchover. Not long enough to transfer its full heat to a quart of VO in the filter, but plenty in a FPHE. I will keep my FPHE after the VO filter.

Here is a thread I made where this got discussed:
Better to have the main VO filter after your vegtherm or FPHE?
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby BMW Fan » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:38 pm

Why make it so complicated ?
I am suprised that SUN runs a wrapped filter only :o
Have a water heated filter
( one of the best and cheapest is the " Eckes " type ) and wrap it.
Forget your HIH.

BMW Fan
BMW Fan
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:13 pm

The eckes filter is another FPHE on top, which is not simpler, and its more expensive than the simple TiH that I used. You have to run coolant and fuel hoses to the tank anyway, so TiH costs very little extra, around $5 for mine, 2 tees and 2 compression fittings. My filter head was $10.

The most common coolant heated filter heads here cost $210 like the VegMax, or $349 for a Vormax. The eckes sell for $185. If you have a good source for cheap heated filter heads, let us know and they would sell many of them.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby BMW Fan » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:41 pm

Well, if you really want to save money go to the junkyard and get a VW oil cooler for app. $10-15$. A filter head $ 5.00 .....
The link to the Eckes website must grow a beard...if you understand this German impression.
The google translation is terrible but there are many pictures.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... oe%3DUTF-8

If there is interest I could sell a complete set, consisting of filter head, seal, adaptor and filter for app. $ 120 , but minimum order would be 10 units.

I am working on my website. Could easily add this product. Let me know what you think.

The Eckes is definitely better than wrapping a filter only. Works great.
Just an idea, just my opinion.

BMW Fan
BMW Fan
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Postby Radrick » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:01 am

I am working on my system and I am planing on using HiT from my engine bay to the tank. I can't see how I would get the wvo to flow in MN at -30f without it. Even if I added another heat exchanger at the tank there will be 6 to 8 feet of line that has -30f oil in it. I have no experience with operating or building a system but I can't help but notice that there so may posts about pumps and pumps failing it seems to me the more I control my oil temp going threw the pump the better luck I will have with it lasting.
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
Radrick
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Postby Welder » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:41 am

BMW Fan wrote:I can only second what you are saying.
But, you got an advantage over the "beginners".
You did several conversion and you are able to compare.
Hands on experience instead of theory.

Klaus


Plenty of very experienced SVO users prefer TIH to HOH. I wouldn't call Frybrid or Fattywagons newbies.

I guess some people just can't seem to get past the fact that others sometimes dissagree.

Most of us get over that in elementary school.
Last edited by Welder on Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Welder » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:14 am

SunWizard wrote:HoH is fine for many climates and types of plumbing, but like so many things in VO, it depends.

HoH is more bulky, you have more hoses to run, and to insulate, but that's minor. My TiH couldn't have been easier to install. There is no way an equal length of HoH can put out more heat than TiH, thats simple thermodynamics. You must have insulated better.

Whether you need more heat depends on how you have it plumbed and where your FPHE is. Unless you have 2 FPHE, the extra heat of my TiH is very needed on my rig to help cold VO to flow through my filter. Since my FPHE is just before the IP, where it is needed the most, it doesn't help get it through the VO filter.

Frybrid uses TiH for years and hundreds of installs, and is considered the best kit for cold climates. I haven't read any threads of people having leaks in their TiH. Have you seen any reports of the TiH failing?

Greasecar HiH is bad, but for other reasons, since they use poor connections, some inside the fuel tank. And they use Pex inner hose, which I have seen and read about many leaks on.


Key sentance:

"There is no way an equal length of HOH can put out more heat than TIH, that's simple thermodynamics."

Absolutely obviously correct. In fact, on infopop, I once read an engineer who stated that aluminum is "entire magnitudes" better at conducting heat.

First of all, I want to say that I respect Jake Palmer and I believe his test results, but like Sunwizard, I think that there may be other factors at play.

It doesn't take an experienced rocket scientist to see that most any metal conducts heat better than hoses do. It seems that the success of HOH veggie fuel lines is due more to insulating the bundle than the effeciency of thermal conductivity of a couple hoses that only touch each other in about 50% of their circumferance.

A proper experiment comparing insulated HOH to insulated TIH would be nice to see. Temp sensors at the SVO tank pick up tube, SVO lift pump, SVO filter and IP inlet would help to clearly illustrate what's happening throughout the entire system. To add clarity to the comparisson, performing the test with lard in -20 degree weather would indicate the stronger system. I'm sure the HOH would eventually thaw the lines, but the TIH would likely be running on lard significantly sooner.
Last edited by Welder on Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Welder » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:37 am

Radrick wrote:I am working on my system and I am planing on using HiT from my engine bay to the tank. I can't see how I would get the wvo to flow in MN at -30f without it. Even if I added another heat exchanger at the tank there will be 6 to 8 feet of line that has -30f oil in it. I have no experience with operating or building a system but I can't help but notice that there so may posts about pumps and pumps failing it seems to me the more I control my oil temp going threw the pump the better luck I will have with it lasting.


Hi Radrick.

Like you, I am also a "newbie", although I've been reading the major forums (English only) for 3 years.

Dana Linscott also lives in MN and he claims to have had success running semi hydrogenated WVO through a HOH veggie fuel system. Although I believe that's possible, I still think a TIH would speed up the melting of hydrogenated WVO or lard. I've got plenty of canola around, but in case that ever changes I'd like a system that can melt thicker stuff faster than a HOH could (assuming that TIH is faster).

Although I think a HOH would be fine, I don't see how rubber hoses that only touch each other at about 50% of their circumferance could possibly thaw lard in -20 degree weather as fast as hot water directly acting against 75% of the circumferance of a metal tube. I say 75% because the metal tube likely sits in the bottom of the rubber hose.

Eventually is fine, but faster is better. I know someone would remind that proper SVO procedure waits until the engine is fully warmed, but since the coolant is what does the job of heating lines and coolant temp rises with engine temp, I'd like the most efficient heat transfer system possible so the lines are FULLY MELTED at switchover.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Jake Palmer » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:55 am

I'll say this, if I was running lard or hydrogenated oil, I might consider HiH
Jake Palmer
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: New Brunswick

TIH tubing size

Postby Burbarian » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:29 am

On the subject of metal veg fuel lines, what is an adequate tubing internal diameter for a TIH design?

Available fuel is lard that is solid to about 105F(40C) in conditions where winter temperatures can often drop to -40F/C. (minimum 80C delta, ideally ~>90C)

Applications are for a 300TD and a GMC 6.2L V8 IDI N.A.

Expected fuel runs are between 15ft and 25ft.

Spring is early this year. Been well above average temps for this time of year, so good time to start work on converting the vehicles. Getting ready to convert both the Merc and the Sub. I'm expecting 1/4" ID would be adequate under in-tank pump pressure, but would likely need 3/8" ID if the pump is in the engine bay and it has to suck through 25ft of tube all the way from the tank. Of course, I could easily be mistaken. Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance.
Burbarian
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: Vermont

Postby SunWizard » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:31 am

I used 3/8 OD aluminum in my TiH and its been fine with PHO that is solid at 90F, even in cold weather and large loads.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Next

Return to 2 Tank veggie oil conversion and General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron