insulation testers wanted

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby BMW Fan » Thu May 08, 2008 9:43 am

leftcoastjeff wrote:BMW Fan said,
"I was under the impression of a wrap which I would not like so much."

What are you trying to say?

"I am doing a BMW conversion right now and may be your first customer."

First paying customer?, hardly. I've been making suits and stuff for 20+ years, But I have never used our materials for this purpose. That's why I am asking for testers.

"So I guess my question goes to Jeff.
How easy was the installation and what did you gain in temperature ?"

Good question! that's why this thread is named "testers wanted"
I do not have info yet, but I will share results here.

Do you want to be an official tester?

LCjeff


What are you trying to say?

I... do... not...like...the...wrap. IMHO.
I...do...like...the...tube.
………………………………………………………………………………………..
"I am doing a BMW conversion right now and may be your first customer."

First paying customer?, hardly. I've been making suits and stuff for 20+ years, But I have never used our materials for this purpose. That's why I am asking for testers.

I know and understand that you are a professional and experienced wet suit maker and in business for more than 20 years.
I apologize if I hurt your feelings by assuming that I might be your first paying customer for your new ( hopefully ) product line.

I see nothing wrong if I offer to pay for a product. ???
………………………………………………………………………………………….
Do you want to be an official tester?

No, I do not want to be an official tester.

That said I might buy and order if Jake’s and the other people involved show positive test results.

Good luck

BMW Fan
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Thu May 08, 2008 9:55 am

No offence intended. I just didn't understand you.

If these work, then I will be selling, until then, "testers wanted"

The wrap could be installed without a lot of trouble.
The tube would have to be slid over one end of the HOH/TIH, fuel lines.

The results will be posted here, good or bad.

P.S. thanks for the offer $$$

LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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Re: Questions

Postby HoldOnTight » Fri May 09, 2008 2:35 pm

leftcoastjeff wrote:Tube or wrap? ANSWER: wrap is best, existing conversion.
How thick can the long one be, weren't you concerned about clearence
through firewall/behind cab? ANSWER: A wrap of 3 to 1 is going to work as long as the wrap is not more than 3 in thick when wrapped. I have a "firewall pass-thru" at the bed of the truck where the lines provide heat to the filter and tank. That is the only pass-thru, since everything else is exposed to the wind underneath or the flow of air around the engine compartment.
1/4" is what I made the last one out of.

FPHE cover? this seems to me to be the most important portion. ANSWER: Actually not. It heats the oil but the external surface accounts for about 8% of the total hot surface. The critical parts to be insulated are the VO lines from the FPHE, the Hydroforce Solenoid Valve and the steel fuel lines on the top side of the engine. These are critical because they bleed off the highest heat from the fuel after the last heat exchanger (FPHE) but before entering the engine. Much heat is also lost on the tube-in-hose run, which is long and exposed to the wind under the truck.

The 34' HOH/TIH, all one piece, if your already going co cut it, let me, so I can make it a little easier on my crew and we can finish the ends.

sounds like a win-win to me. ANSWER: Ok, I understand I'm going to need a wrap wound 3:1 (insulation: hose) and I have about 3 ft between supporting clamps on the large perimiter hose, so each of those should be about 9 feet long to cover each of the 3 ft sections. There is two 6 ft section of unsupported hose running up and into the bed of the truck. So I'll need 10 of the 9 foot sections and two 18 foot sections, for a total wrap length of 90 ft + 36 ft = 126 ft of total wrap and with a 3:1 wrap to length, 126/3 = 38 ft of total run. I know I asked for 34 feet originally but I have one section of Hose-On-Hose that I can wrap with the same material and it should fit! A wrap is more versatile.

When the engine is at temp. do the hydraforce valves get hot to the touch?
ANSWER: The hydroforce valves get too hot to the touch. They get up to 180 deg F in the summer heat without much load on the engine!
Too darn many questions? ANSWER: They are really good questions. I'm learning more about what you have and how to apply it for my situation.

LCjeff
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Insulation testers

Postby leftcoastjeff » Fri May 09, 2008 3:34 pm

OK,
I got 10ea.-9' wraps
and 2ea.-18' wraps.
Thats too simple.

FPHE,
I'm having a hard time understanding how 8% total area fits in?
Is it hot to the touch, ever? If it is, then we must cover it.IMHO.

Plantdrive is supposed to be sending me products to design around, one of which is the hydroforce valve..............Are all 3 hot?,to me, looking at drawings, it seems that only one or two could be hot.

please PM me your mailing address and I'll get started asap.


US snail mail seems to be the best way to send stuff long distance.


Respectively,
LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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Postby Jake Palmer » Sun May 11, 2008 7:13 pm

Success!

Well, it started off with a bit of failure, actually. Jeff sent me a beautiful 9' neoprene tube to cover a long section of 2 line HoH.

Unfortunately, nomatter what I tried, I couldn't get the hoses through the tube. After 3 hours of fighting with it, I gave up and sliced it down the middle to use it as a wrap.

Well, here's what I found:

Reflective bubblewrap, 15*C outside

10 minutes at 100 kms/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 43.9*C
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 35.7*C

10 minutes at ~50 km/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 46.6*C
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 37.9*C

Neoprene wrap, 11*C outside

10 minutes at 100 kms/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 48.0*C
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 45.5*C

10 minutes at ~50 km/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 47.9*C
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 45.9*C

I've got some pictures to load too.

Anyway, it's great stuff. I'm sorry I couldn't use it as-intended like a sock, but I found wrapping it still looks really good, and it's far more flexible that teh bubblewrap & tintape. I really like it.

Thanks Jeff!
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Doh!

Postby leftcoastjeff » Sun May 11, 2008 8:43 pm

I thought that it was going to be a problem, I think a wrap would be easier, and maybe more effective.
We'll see when Holdontight gets his wraps(126') and tests.

Your testing has given me hope and confidence. Thank you very much!

how did you hold the opened tube on and was there any uncovered areas?

Great info, although the ambient temps may warp the results a little,this looks like a winner. :D
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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wraping flat plate heat exchanger

Postby omar » Mon May 12, 2008 1:37 pm

Image

we have been using some high-density foam (recycled sleeping bag mat) and wraping flat plate heat exchanger with it … helps with the metal to metal vibration …

anyway nice read lot of good info here thanks

Omar
www.omarsales.com
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shipping address!

Postby HoldOnTight » Mon May 12, 2008 2:34 pm

leftcoastjeff wrote:I thought that it was going to be a problem, I think a wrap would be easier, and maybe more effective.
We'll see when Holdontight gets his wraps(126') and tests.

Great info, although the ambient temps may warp the results a little,this looks like a winner. :D


LC Jeff,
I'm not sure whether or not you have my address, but you may have my cell # in an initial PM. If you need either my address or cell #, I can PM it to you. I suspect that with the warmer weather, temp gain will be more difficult to get due to the lower temperature difference (warmer ambient reduces heat bleedoff). I'll also take measurements in the winter and post it. I can measure temps where the HIH-HOH transition using IR thermometer, built in temp sensor (just after fuel selector solenoid) to see temp. differences before and after. Both sensors are consistent within 5 deg F.

HoldOnTight
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Mon May 12, 2008 3:47 pm

Anyone in sub-zero places want a chance to test? (Siberia?)
This would give great results :D
But not many of us deal with snow every day.

Omar,(recycled sleeping bag mat) sounds like a great idea, although it's not laminated with cloth like wetsuits.
The laminate process gives abraision resistance and strength to the soft rubber, increasing it's longevity.

LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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imo

Postby omar » Mon May 12, 2008 5:14 pm

we have a lot of folks who have run a lot of miles with no cloth cover on the foam ... I think the car motor will need to be rebuilt before the foam mat wears out ... imo :lol:
keep up the good work thanks
Omar
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Mon May 12, 2008 5:29 pm

amazing, I never would have thought it would last! My misunder.........

Good info, thanks to all,

LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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lasts longer?

Postby HoldOnTight » Wed May 14, 2008 8:51 pm

I think the laminate would be helpful in many applications where abrasion resistance of the lines is needed...mine may be one of those applications.

I understand the wraps were shipped to me today. I'll explain more once I get the wraps applied. If I had the wraps when I was running my HOH, I probably could have simplified my installation by using fewer clamps to secure the HOH and not use some sacrificial hose pieces as buffers between the frame rail and the HOH lines.

Pics are worth a thousand words...so that will be posted/hosted when I report my results.
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Wed May 14, 2008 10:17 pm

Thanks for updating the thread.

126' of wrapping, that's a lot of cutting.:shock:

I can't see it not helping speed heat transfer and hold temps for longer periods. (yea it's a double neg.)

1 and a half sheets, 2 and a half hours. Whew!

On the brite side, the wife seems to be comming around to the idea of smelling like fries, instead of Dino@#$%:roll:.........The price of fuel has somthing to do with it I'm sure.

LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: Monterey, cal.

Postby leftcoastjeff » Wed May 14, 2008 10:51 pm

I just couldn't wrap my mind around the results, so......

Jake reported;
Reflective bubblewrap, 59F outside

10 minutes at 62mi/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 111.02F
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 92.26

10 minutes at ~31mi/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 115.88F
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 100.22F

Neoprene wrap, 51.8F outside

10 minutes at 62mi/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 118.4F
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 113.9F

10 minutes at ~31mi/hr:
- fuel temp at start of HoH section: 118.22F
- fuel temp at end of HoH section: 114.62F

OK. Not as big a differance as I thought, translating temps helped me,
So that's 9' of HOH, insulated.

Jake, I've had a little trouble getting the hydroforse block as-yet, can you measure it for me, if you've got one?

Remember, "if it's hot to the touch, it needs insulation"
Not my Quote, not sure where I heard it.

LCjeff

Looking forward to images, hint, hint.........
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
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Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: Monterey, cal.

Shipment arrived! Installation planned for the weekend!!

Postby HoldOnTight » Tue May 20, 2008 9:00 pm

LC Jeff,
I got the package today :)..., and I couldn't wait to open and have a look. My first impression is that this stuff is going to be easy to install because it isn't too thick, very pliable and the outer cover should make the stuff easier to stretch a bit for a good fit/coverage. Obviously you know how to provide the best thickness to make installation easy for an existing setup! It isn't too thick and If I ever need to take it off, cleaning should be a breeze with a pressure sprayer at the car wash before I reinstall it.

I'm going to install it this weekend, complete with Before and After pics and before and after temp measurements. I'm going to pull the existing insulation on the hottest section of line feeding the fuel rail, which wasn't easy to install at all, and it doesn't look as good as this new stuff will! :D

I'm excited. I get good fuel temps now and fairly quickly, but I can't wait for the cold weather to see how much quicker I can get hot fuel, which will reduce the chance of cold VO issues from accumulating with each cold slug of fuel that hits the fuel rails at startup...priceless. :D

Although ambient temps can make some difference in the heat bled off (or not with the insulation), I think the temp gain of the VO with the addition of the insulation wrap will be proof enough.

I'm looking for advice on the key points I'm going to take temp measurements. Possibilities include the coolant heated fuel pickup, the coolant heated Davco 234+ VO input line, both ends of the HOH-HIH transitions and the input to the Hydroforce fuel selector solenoid. But maybe all this isn't necessary since I have a looped system. Maybe the time to max temp and the max temp is all that is needed for comparison since the loop will stabilize the temp throughout the loop once the VO is switched on within a mile or so of driving. Thoughts, suggestions?

Richard (HoldOnTight)
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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