Generators running a mobile centrifuge?

Collecting, filtering and dewatering of WVO SVO vegetable oil. For Biodiesel producers too.

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Generators running a mobile centrifuge?

Postby Welder » Sat May 03, 2008 4:52 am

David wrote:You needn't worry about over cooling the engine if you have a correctly working thermostat. I take it you are going to be doing this while the vehicle is stationary? if so, warm the engine up, leave it at a fast idle and then start the pump to heat your oil. The idling itself will be more danger than over cooling the engine.

If you intend doing it while the vehicle is moving, you can steal all the heat that big radiator out front normally dumps which is going to be far more than your HE could even get near.

I wouldn't even bother with the idea of exhaust heat. It could work very well but as you have extremely high "safety" standards, anything that you would be happy with would require more complication and hassle than what it could possibly be worth so much better just to stick with the coolant. There is also the LPG heater idea you were looking at before as well and the WVO burner concept you were also interested in.

Maybe best to look at one of these ideas and persue it to fruition rather than thinking of every potential problem for every idea you come up with. I'm really keen to see you get something practical happening to put the huge amount of research and learning you have done to good use!

Do you have a link as to where you got the CF from and what pump are you planing to drive it with?
:D


Well, I'll try to answer you and Klaus' questions at the same time:

I wanted to run hot engine coolant and WVO through a FPHE to warm the WVO before parking and using a small (quiet) gas genset to power the pump motor and top up WVO tank heat when necessary. The genset would only serve as back up to an extension cord at my friends driveway.

If I insulate the CF system well enough, I hope to hold the majority of the initial heat throughout the entire CFing process.

I wasn't sure if the wattage output of the typical wimpy (cheap) domestic grade gensets was enough for handling BOTH the primary initial oil warm up AND the pump draw. I see the 2000 or 3000 watt units frequently for $200 to $400.

I figure the pump motor draw would be pretty small, but heating a 50 gallon tank of cold WVO might take some heavy wattage. I knew waste coolant heat would be enough, but I didn't want to take a chance on maintaining a cold engine warm-up state for 4-8 hours at a time. Free fuel isn't worth eventual coking, although my IDI would likely not coke up anywhere as fast as a direct injected engine might under those circumstances.
Last edited by Welder on Sat May 03, 2008 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BMW Fan » Sat May 03, 2008 6:50 am

...There, are you two guys happy now? ...


No. Wasting your money on one of the small gensets is totally up to you.
But be warned.
They are running on 3600 rpm and won't last long. Their gas tank seems to be " alwyays" empty. :lol:
The energy you put in is not what you get out.
IMHO a expensive solution. Bad for your pocket.
I like to give you a figure to convert HP into KW or the other way around.
1 HP = 1.36 KW
1 KW= 0.73 HP

best regards
Klaus

http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby coachgeo » Sat May 03, 2008 7:06 am

Welder wrote:...I wanted to run hot engine coolant and WVO through a FPHE to warm the WVO before parking and using a small (quiet) gas genset to power the pump motor and top up WVO tank heat when necessary. ....
Pretty much how I'lde like to do it too in my expedition camper build.

Look forward to watching yours progress.
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Postby coachgeo » Sat May 03, 2008 7:25 am

BMW Fan wrote:...No. Wasting your money ...
The energy you put in is not what you get out.
Klaus out of curiosity how much energy do you suspect would be needed to maintain hot veg. while it centrifuges? Assuming standard heat loss from a prudently insulated system. I guess for standandards reason.... say two hours of time?

Sorry Im not a math person so I would be very appreciative to anyone who runs the numbers.

Would it be less energy if one sent the cleaned oil to a differnt tank as it left the CF so their is lowering volumes of oil that needs to be heated (or heat maintained) while awaiting its chance to go thru the CF?

Instead of trying to maintain heat in a pre heated 50Gal tank; would it be less energy instead to bump smaller amounts of oil temps up a tad "if needed" by using a thermostate controlled heated smaller pretank or an inline heater like Suns, system. Taking into account that either of these would be feed by the pre heated big tank?

thanx
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Postby coachgeo » Sat May 03, 2008 7:33 am

Welder,

With a Dieselcraft type system you don't have to worry about balancing the rotor etc. in the CF. The jiggles of driving dont affect it... or you would not think so since they are made to be opperating while driving anyway.

With that in mind.... I would think you could get some Centrifuging done while driving. In a beast like I'll be driving at 12 or less MPG the CF wont be able to keep up with amount of fuel burned. So I should allways have a place to send cleaned oil.

With that idea in place you may have very little oil left to CF when stopped. Well on long trips that is.
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Postby SunWizard » Sat May 03, 2008 9:27 am

coachgeo wrote:
BMW Fan wrote:...No. Wasting your money ...
The energy you put in is not what you get out.
Klaus out of curiosity how much energy do you suspect would be needed to maintain hot veg. while it centrifuges? Assuming standard heat loss from a prudently insulated system. I guess for standandards reason.... say two hour7s of time?

This is from my experience with a 55g drum, not insulated, it takes 1125w to maintain 160F VO at the CF in cool 50F weather. Warm weather its about half that.
Would it be less energy if one sent the cleaned oil to a differnt tank as it left the CF so their is lowering volumes of oil that needs to be heated (or heat maintained) while awaiting its chance to go thru the CF?

No, insulating the single tank is the best energy saver. You will still have some amount of heat lost off the top of the VO, if its an open top drum which works the best for dewatering. I use about 6kw of power(=48 cents) for a 45g batch, with insulation and using coolant heat you could probably cut that to 3kw = 24cents.
Instead of trying to maintain heat in a pre heated 50Gal tank; would it be less energy instead to bump smaller amounts of oil temps up a tad "if needed" by using a thermostate controlled heated smaller pretank or an inline heater like Suns, system. Taking into account that either of these would be feed by the pre heated big tank?

Yes an inline heater saves energy since the entire drum can be 20F lower, and that is where the main heat loss is.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby coachgeo » Sat May 03, 2008 4:36 pm

SunWizard wrote:.... You will still have some amount of heat lost off the top of the VO, if its an open top drum which works the best for dewatering. ....
Dang I keep forgetting about this. Sounds like for on the go CFing you would want a closed top along with maintaining a constant vacuume level to suck out water vapor as it is expelled from the CF.

Would that work?

If so; is there a way to measure vacuum with some sort of switch thus giving you the ability to keep the amount of vacuum constant?

If it helps at all maybe have the CF mounted inside a small tank with a bit of vacuum on it to suck out the water vapor while the dry oil drains on back into the tank from which it came.?
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Postby Welder » Sat May 03, 2008 6:22 pm

BMW Fan wrote:
...There, are you two guys happy now? ...


No. Wasting your money on one of the small gensets is totally up to you.
But be warned.
They are running on 3600 rpm and won't last long. Their gas tank seems to be " alwyays" empty. :lol:
The energy you put in is not what you get out.
IMHO a expensive solution. Bad for your pocket.
I like to give you a figure to convert HP into KW or the other way around.
1 HP = 1.36 KW
1 KW= 0.73 HP

best regards
Klaus




Thanks for your concern, Klaus.

The points you raised are the reasons why I haven't bought a small genset. I can't really lug around a giant heavy Listeroid genset just to achieve the Holy Grail of WVO refinement.

Even with the shorther lifespan of the cheaper gensets, I don't think 8 hours per week would wear one out too soon. They have a "mean-time-before-failure" rating, and I'd imagine that at 8 hours of use per week, I'd still be waaaaay ahead on fuel costs.

Sunwizard said he already tried this genset Holy Grail. I think it worked reasonably well for him...
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Postby SunWizard » Sat May 03, 2008 6:55 pm

The honda genset is quiet, not 3600 rpm, lasts a long time, and burns very little fuel. I agree the cheap generators are not worth it, but this is way different.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Welder » Sat May 03, 2008 7:03 pm

Thanks Sun, I knew you provide an accurrate/unbiased prospective. (that's why people respect you)

How much $$$ would an appropriately sized Honda genset cost?
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Postby SunWizard » Sat May 03, 2008 7:12 pm

The honda eu2000i sells for around $1000 new.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby coachgeo » Sat May 03, 2008 10:15 pm

we are well off on a tangent from the main topic of this thread I think. If anyone sees some good places to split it up into good topics of their own please pipe in.
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Postby Welder » Sun May 04, 2008 4:12 am

Yes George, we're a little off, but it's still related.

Anyway, I'll post this link for your guys' input:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... _200359068

If people really object to this Holy Grail detour, then maybe we should start another thread.
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Postby Welder » Sun May 04, 2008 5:15 am

SunWizard wrote:
coachgeo wrote:
BMW Fan wrote:...No. Wasting your money ...
The energy you put in is not what you get out.
Klaus out of curiosity how much energy do you suspect would be needed to maintain hot veg. while it centrifuges? Assuming standard heat loss from a prudently insulated system. I guess for standandards reason.... say two hour7s of time?

This is from my experience with a 55g drum, not insulated, it takes 1125w to maintain 160F VO at the CF in cool 50F weather. Warm weather its about half that.
Would it be less energy if one sent the cleaned oil to a differnt tank as it left the CF so their is lowering volumes of oil that needs to be heated (or heat maintained) while awaiting its chance to go thru the CF?

No, insulating the single tank is the best energy saver. You will still have some amount of heat lost off the top of the VO, if its an open top drum which works the best for dewatering. I use about 6kw of power(=48 cents) for a 45g batch, with insulation and using coolant heat you could probably cut that to 3kw = 24cents.
Instead of trying to maintain heat in a pre heated 50Gal tank; would it be less energy instead to bump smaller amounts of oil temps up a tad "if needed" by using a thermostate controlled heated smaller pretank or an inline heater like Suns, system. Taking into account that either of these would be feed by the pre heated big tank?

Yes an inline heater saves energy since the entire drum can be 20F lower, and that is where the main heat loss is.


Hi Sun.

When you mentioned your 55 gal drum, you said it required 1125 watts to maintain 160 F without insulation at 50 deg ambient.

Would it be reasonable to think that an insulated, but open top CF drum that was already warmed by engine coolant would likely be kept warm by a 2000 watt genset running both an 1125 watt element and a 1/2 HP CF motor?

I know my ambient wasn't mentioned and the open top will bleed more heat than closed top, but am I anywhere even vaguely near close with estimating that 2000-3000 watts would be required?

I'm hoping that the coolant preheating the WVO in the CF tank would offset the open top heat loss.
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Postby SunWizard » Sun May 04, 2008 9:35 am

Welder wrote:Would it be reasonable to think that an insulated, but open top CF drum that was already warmed by engine coolant would likely be kept warm by a 2000 watt genset running both an 1125 watt element and a 1/2 HP CF motor?

Yes thats what I run and said above, mine is open top.
I know my ambient wasn't mentioned and the open top will bleed more heat than closed top, but am I anywhere even vaguely near close with estimating that 2000-3000 watts would be required?

2000.
I'm hoping that the coolant preheating the WVO in the CF tank would offset the open top heat loss.

No since you probably are not heating with coolant while running CF. Coolant would make it hot so you could start CF right away, and the electric element covers any heat loss.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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