Viscosity testing of WVO & blends

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Re: blend viscosity

Postby SunWizard » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:57 am

mixer wrote:Just a note SunWizard, it is my understanding that winter diesel is D-1, not D-2, and it is mostly kerosene, if that is true then it would be helpful for us all to keep our terms straight.

From the info I found, D1 is straight kerosene. Winter D2 is not straight kero except in some parts alaska and canada.

Winter D2 is a blend of D2 and other things, some kero and often other secret additives. Some places use no kero, only additives that lower the viscosity and/or CFPP (cold filter plugging point.). Sometimes its just the refining process to make it have a lower CFPP.
Last edited by SunWizard on Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:12 am

coachgeo wrote:could the gas be reacting with the material the pluger is made of? Possibly making it sticky?
I don't think it got sticky since it immediately worked fine again as soon as I sucked up some VO, which I did right away since I thought it was broken for good.
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Postby mixer » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:29 am

Hello SunWizard, while researching the characteristics of a wide range of fuels, I realized why ULSD is “low sulfur,” and why #2 diesel, which is ULSD today, is predominantly kerosene with a little motor oil added to it. If you examine the chart at the URL below, you will find that kerosene has a Sulfur content per cent by mass of only 0.04%; whereas Gas Oil D, which I believe must be the original D-2 diesel fuel, has 0.5% Sulfur, which is 12 times the Sulfur content per unit mass. So, what you say is most probably correct.

However, originally, and until recently, D-2 was simply a cut in the refinery of crude oil, and kerosene was another cut, and the same with gasoline in succession. And, winter diesel (D-1) was originally D-2 with some percentage of kerosene added. I suspect these days the only difference between D-1 and D-2 is D-2 most probably have more motor oil added to it. I have found the Engineering Toolbox has been most informative regarding fuels. However, these differences in how diesel is made today is making our blending attempts to mimic D-2 more complicated.

Classification of Gas Oil
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/class ... d_165.html
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:36 pm

I haven't seen any source say they make our D2 by using kero and adding motor oil, do you have a source?

Sources I have read say the main difference between D2 and kero is the paraffin content, which they lower for kero and winter D2 so it has a lower CFPP. This has nothing to do with sulfur content.
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Petroleum Distillation

Postby mixer » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:11 pm

Hello SunWizard, if you examine the links below, they will show you the classic methods of Petroleum Distillation, and the typical fractions that come from the process. You will see that kerosene was never a part of the diesel (D-2) fraction; however, I have heard from numerous sources that ULSD is “just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it.” And, your earlier statement supports this popular belief.

I have actually read it on a number of bio-forums and disregarded the belief until I had examined the sulfur content of various Petroleum fractions under the link for “Classification of Gas Oil” and began to accept that the common belief might be true. However, I have yet to find an authoritative source for this belief, and arguably there are other ways of reducing the sulfur content of petroleum fractions, other than to sell kerosene with motor oil in it as diesel fuel.

Under diesel, wikipedia says, the chemical composition of
Petroleum-derived diesel is composed of about 75% saturated hydrocarbons (primarily paraffins including n, iso, and cycloparaffins), and 25% aromatic hydrocarbons (including naphthalenes and alkylbenzenes).[11] The average chemical formula for common diesel fuel is C12H23, ranging from approx. C10H20 to C15H28.

I have yet to find a definitive source for what exactly is ULSD diesel today, so I am inclined to return to my original belief that D-2 diesel is just a fraction of the petroleum refining stream after the kerosene cut, which says D-2 is NOT “just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it.” However, winter diesel (D-1) might be. If you want a definitive answer, then I suggest that you download the ASTM D975 -08 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils. It is only $ 49.00. The link is below.

Green Fuels has a one-page document on the ASTM D975 -08 downloadable for free at the URL below. However, it is just a synopses and does not state what goes into D-2 diesel other than to suggest it is still just a cut in the distillate tower after the kerosene cut.

Diesel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel

Liquid fuels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fuels

How Oil Refining Works
http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining4.htm

Modern Refining
http://www.pafko.com/history/h_refine.html

REFINING OF PETROLEUM
http://www.aip.com.au/industry/fact_refine.htm

Classification of Gas Oil
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/class ... d_165.html

ASTM D975 -08 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D975.htm
www.greenfuels.org/biodiesel/tech/ASTM-D975.pdf
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby WyoSam » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:56 pm

SunWizard wrote:Kerosene = 35 SSU, the same as my winter D2.
Turpentine = 1425 SSU, very thick, but you only add a tiny amount.


Hi Sun,

This doesn't add up, that puts turpentine thicker than honey? The medical world considers turpentine a low viscosity fluid giving it a higher risk of aspiration. Try it in your tester.

Sam
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:10 pm

I agree, there is something wrong with the chart I linked where that came from. It makes no difference either way since people add such a tiny amount, its not worth testing.
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Postby HoldOnTight » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:24 pm

240Volvo wrote:HoldOnTight,

Thanks for the posts. I have a question, though. While you said that the most important information regarding the change in viscosity provided by a blend is for the range of 140F and higher, isn't a good portion of the purpose of blending to reduce potential engine problems related to cold starts? As such, it would seem that the performance at lower temps should be at least as important.


I don't advocate anyone start cold on VO.

I believe there is enough data on the forums that tell why we shouldn't.

As Sun said differently, cold cylinder walls will still amass poly on the ring lands and the engine oil. Viscosity affects the burn efficiency indirectly.

Reducing the viscosity directly enables the injectors to spray a finer mist (if not already fouled). A finer mist could improve efficiency of the burn, but a cold engine has less available compression since the rings haven't gotten up to full temperature to fully seal.

The constituents of the fuel will still burn based on their compression ignition points, perhaps assisted by one component of the fuel burning earlier, and the resultant heat may improve the next fuels burn. at this point, the fuel has already been injected (discounting the case where piezoelectric injectors produce multiple injections in a powerstroke) and the atomization size of the fuel has already been determined.

But there are no guarantees that all the fuel will burn, as there is no hard scientific evidence. Each situation needs to be evaluated on a a case by case basis, considering clyinder design and piston design and injector design and whether or not there are multiple injections per powerstroke, and ring effectiveness, and the fuel properties of each component in a blend.

We do have some reports of benefits, but that doesn't mean it applies to all diesel engines. If we could find a UVO with the same burn properties as diesel D1 or D2, then we could probably apply blending effects on viscosity more directly to achieve the desired characteristics of viscosity across all diesel engine situations. Dream on, right?

Interestingly, there are gas fuels that are closer to RUG that are biofuels. Researh is ongoing to improve production efficiencies over ethanol. Propanol is such a fuel that is a bioproduct of microbes that feed on the same source biomaterial as used in the production of ethanol, but already, propanol using this newer method of production in a fiber bed reactor results in 4 times as much energy as the ethanol, but without the limitation on octane. Propanol also can be mixed with RUG in almost any ratio without modification to existing gas engines. Flexifuel cars can take any ratio of RUG to propanol, including 100%! Oh, by the way, it also improves emissions over the use of gas!
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby 240Volvo » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:18 am

Hi, Hold on

I understand that you do not advocate starting on cold VO. But, as you can see from both my sig and the heading this thread is under, "single tank...", it is something that is done commonly by us single-tankers. That is why I posed the question. I would also imagine that most people who blend do not do so in two tank systems, but perhaps that is beside the point.

Knowing which solvents have the lowest viscosity at the lowest temperature is important information (if it is available), and it seems from what you have posted that you have some degree of expertise in this area. I want to learn and to apply that knowledge as best as I am able. If I can do so without crude experiments of my own, I would prefer, but we do what we must!

I have read of the constituents of aviation fuels, which obviously must function in cold, viscosity-challenging conditions, and I am eager to find a solution that does not need to use petroleum-derived solvents any more than necessary. Turps are intriguing, but the data thus far are odd.

Thanks for your reply.
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby HoldOnTight » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:36 pm

02Powerstroke, I don't know if I can answer your questions. I do think everyone can and should benefit from asking questions in an open forum, unless there is something personal to be discussed. You are free to PM me, if that is the route you want to take. I try to point out things of value to other forum members, but I don't claim to be an expert.

240Volvo, You got me. I'm a 2 tanker, but I have an interest in blending since many of my trips are short and don't always have time for extended operation at steady-state engine/VO temperatures, especially in winter. Nowhere in this thread, was a newbie cautioned that blending is best left to those who have done considerable research on the risks associated with their engine design, and the potential repair costs. We tend to assume those readers in the forum topic are aware of the whys and why nots of blending. There are many variables to consider.

Perhaps the powerstroke is most forgiving after the older M-B engines, but the cost of injector replacement is ludicrous for a powerstroke. I don't claim to know all the engines that can be started with a blend without long term harm. I know I wouldn't ever want to start my 7.3 L powerstroke cold on VO, until I learn more about blending, anyway. Another reason I'm here in this forum topic. I'm not so sure I'm brave enough to venture into new territory with my engine at risk. I hope to learn from others who blend for their 7.3 L powerstroke engine. ;)

Blending gives me a margin of safety during winter to ensure a better spray/cleaner burn, longer lasting motor oil (resistance to premature wear/fouling). That is mainly why I'm here.

I also have 2 visgage's... Seems like Sun and I have similar interests. Winter operation is the most demanding on shorter trips, even for diesel. I believe this is the most vulnerable time for even 2 tankers... I am risk intolerant.

:)
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby 240Volvo » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:06 am

Hi, HoldOn

Have you read this:

http://www.ilot.edu.pl/2005%201_2%20pdf ... kowski.pdf

This is a long term study of a one tank modern (not IDI) engine in a climate that is very cold in the winter, yet it produces less pollution and is safe for long term use (248,000 KM). Viscosity is obviously the issue, but it is not dealt with by blending and is successful.

All engines are not equal, but the challenges are common. Engine health (compression), engine maintenance (glow plugs, injectors, valve adjustment, and injection timing), and engine modifications that mitigate VO viscosity are all aspects of addressing the common challenges. I believe that blending is also an important constituent, and I would like to find a way to reliably reduce VO viscosity, ideally without petrochemicals.

Finding out the low temperature performance characteristics of these agents is the most important aspect of safe VO use. Short trips and cold starts are the most challenging scenarios, and cold temperatures are what they are about.
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby bio_cowboy » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:41 am

Hello SunWizard, I have enjoyed reading through this forum and have learned quite a bit. Just out of curiosity, which model VISGAGE did you use for your experiments?
SunWizard wrote:Another interesting thing, is that putting the RUG in the tester almost broke it, since the lubricity was lowered so much that the plunger wouldn't slide in the barrel.
I had a conversation with the owner of Louis C. Eitzen Co., Manufacturers of the VISGAGE Pocket Viscometer, and he told me that gasoline should never be used in any model of their Viscometer, because they are designed for viscous fluids, such as fuel oil. Their literature suggests that cleaning the gage is unnecessary unless it will be stored unused for some time, then to avoid lacquering, they suggest rinsing it out with kerosene.

If anyone is interested, I found some more interesting discussions on viscosity data of VO blends at the following URLs:

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... p?tid=9898
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... p?tid=9949
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... p?tid=9926
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/veg ... sage/15342
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/veg ... sage/15692
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/veg ... sage/15728

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Postby SunWizard » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:46 am

Its a #2 as shown on the first post of this thread.
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Postby bio_cowboy » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:36 pm

Thanks SunWizard, for telling us the model visgage you are using. I had of course read the whole forum here and did not find the model visgage that you were using, and when you said you had posted it on the first page of this forum, I went back, read through your original message and did not find the model#, so then I searched the whole page, and still did not find the model#, so I guess it was just an oversight, but no big deal. It is just good to know.

I have two visgages, a model #2 and #4. From their literature, these models are designed for more viscous fluids than diesel (see below). The MODEL #2 has a SCALE RANGE of 0 TO 2000 SUS @ 100ºF. It is recommended range for readings approximately 40 to 800 SUS. This means it will be quite handy for testing source oils, like WVO to know how much solvent to add to bring it down to diesel range.

I believe the MODEL #38 (see below) was designed for use with bio-diesel manufacturing. Its SCALE RANGE is 0 TO 400 CST @ 40ºC. And, its recommended range is for readings approximately 8 to 200 CST. Since WVO blends and bio-diesel tend to have a viscosity of about 6-10 CST @ 40ºC, it would suggest that even this instrument is only marginally useful for the purpose of testing WVO blends and bio-diesel. Knowing this, the owner of Louis C. Eitzen Co. suggested that I look into VISCOSITY CUPs (see below). This winter I plan to do some serious testing of vegetable oil-based blended fuels. When I have some data I will be happy to post it here.

MODEL #38
SCALE RANGE - 0 TO 400 CST @ 40ºC.
Recommended range for readings approximately 8 to 200 CST

MODEL #76
SCALE RANGE - 0 TO 400 CST @ 40ºC.
Recommended range for readings approximately 20 to 400 CST

MODEL #2
SCALE RANGE - 0 TO 2000 SUS @ 100ºF.
Recommended range for readings approximately 40 to 800 SUS

MODEL #4
SCALE RANGE - 0 TO 2000 SUS @ 100ºF.
Recommended range for readings approximately 400 to 1400 SUS

Louis C. Eitzen Co.
Manufacturer of the VISGAGE Pocket Viscometer and the Eitzen Portable Brinell Meter

P. O. Box 1210
Glenwood Springs, CO
81602-1210 USA

Toll Free 888-950-7572
970-945-7572
Fax 970-945-2738
http://www.visgage.com/page_2.htm
e-mail: sales@Visgage.com

Norcross SHELL CUP VISCOSITY CUP
http://viscosity.com/p_ec_sc.asp?gclid= ... GgodA26iXQ

Toolmart Viscosity Measuring Cup – 47399 Price: $14.99
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/showpro ... ctid=12953

Gleempaint Viscosity Cup 0153165 $6.99
http://www.gleempaint.com/viscosity-cup.html

Ride'm biofuelers
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:59 pm

The #2 and #38 are the same range, except SSU instead of cSt. These were both on the market way before biodiesel making, mine is very old. All of the blends I have tested come well within the range of either tester. No need to buy another if you have 2 already, they are very simple, accurate and repeatable for the ranges we need to measure.

You don't need to get a blend down to equal D2 viscosity at 70F, a V80 blend which has a similar viscosity (16cSt) to cold 32F D2 (23cSt) works great down to 20F in my 300D. This tester will accurately measure even 100% D2 viscosity so you could match it if you like even though its not needed.

Viscosity cups don't have nearly as wide a range and are harder to use since you must pour the VO between 2 containers (more messy), and convert to SSU or cSt to compare to the common standards, and most of them like the paint ones don't offer any info on conversion to SSU or cSt.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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