Viscosity testing of WVO & blends

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby coachgeo » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:45 pm

rtarh2o wrote:...I have heard that diesel has oil in it? Is this true?...
ahhh..... uhmmm..... gosh.... not really wanting to be the one that gets egg on your face :oops: but... someones going to

The term "Diesel" could be considered a nick name for "Diesel Oil". It is an oil, all oil, and nothing but an oil so help me god :D (not counting the additives)
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby John Galt » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:20 am

Does ice have water in it?
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Postby rtarh2o » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:04 am

I guess now that I think about it that it was a dumb question, it is processed from crude oil, but my point is that all oil thickens with temperature doesn't it? So what is the difference between diesel "oil" and vegetable oil as far as spray patterns when cold at the same viscosity? And in an IDI engine is it even that important? I know this opens up all kinds of discussions but I am just trying to figure out what the problems are with properly thinned WVO (and I know this has many variables too)
Rusty
1994 Mercedes G350DT
94 6.2 Diesel Toyota Land Cruiser 7,000 miles on blend (sold)
rtarh2o
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 9:43 pm
Location: N.E.Texas

Postby coachgeo » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 am

diesel thickens in cold too. It will even gell. But since it starts thinner.. it takes more cold than say WVO.

see

http://www.arctic-fox.com/
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby John Galt » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:49 am

coachgeo wrote:diesel thickens in cold too. It will even gell.

That's a rather generalized statement. Up here the temperatures get to -40 and there is no real problem with pump diesel gelling. That's like saying paper towels fall apart when wet. Obviously some do and some don't. You can't make accurate generalized statements about diesel fuel; it's not a uniformly standardized product like kerosene.
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Postby WD8CDH » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:08 am

Of course, Diesel fuel is a standardized product, even more so than Kerosene. Of course, any standard has a range of specs.

Diesel has far more specs to meet (ASTM D975) than Kerosene (ASTM D 3699).
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby coachgeo » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:27 am

John Galt wrote:
coachgeo wrote:diesel thickens in cold too. It will even gell.

That's a rather generalized statement. ....
Correct, generalized statement for the generalized theme of this conversation.

The range of temp that diesel will begin to thicken and eventually gell is significantly colder than that of WVO, but they both do it.

rtarh2o wrote:... in an IDI engine is it even that important? I know this opens up all kinds of discussions but I am just trying to figure out what the problems are with properly thinned WVO (and I know this has many variables too)
Rusty
Properly thinned is the thing. What is that? its an arguable point. Then lets say you reach this "proper" point. Ok.... now how well does this fuel combust? Does it combust differently? How different than diesel itself etc.

WVO does combust a little different. Timing the engine to the fuel, no different than a race care engine maker does when he sets the timing to race fuels. This is key to long term success. OR you keep tweaking away at the fuel with temps and blends etc. till it mimicks the exact burn patterns of diesel then you do not have to mess with engine timing.

The tweaking of the WVO to be like diesel is the mode most have attacked it IMHO. Could be that way due to not having access to ways to measure quality of combustion thus no way of knowing what timing setting allows for best combustion and what doesn't. There is other factors but hopefully all this is answering some of your questions.
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby coachgeo » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:41 am

By the way.... we are getting a bit off topic of this thread.

Sounds like you need to start a new thread.
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby John Galt » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:35 pm

The viscosity of pump diesel in Miami can be different from the pump diesel in Fairbanks. At some times of the year this difference can be significant. Making blanket statements about 'diesel' parameters without specifying grade, region and time of year can be misleading, especially to those who believe that diesel is the same everywhere.
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Postby coachgeo » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:22 pm

John Galt wrote:... especially to those who believe that diesel is the same everywhere.
now that is good point of learning
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby WD8CDH » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:02 am

In the ASTM standard, the cloud point spec is "Depends on
location". The standard does specify the viscosity range at 40C for all locations but does not specify cold temperature limits, but no matter where you get diesel fuel, if you get it cold enough, it will thicken and gel.

VO has a much wider variation in viscosity, not just because of the source but also the processing of waste oil. If you remove the fat, you lower the viscosity and cloud point so less thinner is needed. But by removing the fat, you also lower the cetane so low cetane thinners negatively effect the combustion more.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby WD8CDH » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:14 am

bio_cowboy wrote:Hello SunWizard, thanks for saving me some money, because I did not notice the change in units. I thought they were for testing thinner fluids. As for using the visgage for testing the viscosity of solvents, you have already demonstrated for us, that the visgage will not work with gasoline, etc. So, vis cups will most likely be the method I use for testing stale gas and mis-fuel etc.


Even better than a vis cup is to run the fluid thru a restrictive tube. A restrictive tube is more sensitive to viscosity changes but a hole in a cup type meter is more effected by density than it is by viscosity, especially with thinner fluids.

I use a viscosity meter similar to the "World Famous Dr Pepper Viscosimeter (Pat Pend)" and find it very consistant and repeatable.

This is also closer to the actual method used to measure SSU.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby SunWizard » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:39 am

I found a good chart showing Diesel viscosity versus temp:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/visco ... _1143.html
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Re: Viscosity testing of WVO & blends

Postby thangwook » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:29 am

I know this thread is old but i didnt want to create a new one with the same topic.

Mr. Wizard, is biodiesel viscosity similar to D2? would mixing biodiesel with WVO thin the WVO viscosity as much as mixing with D2 (give or take a few percent)?
2006 VW Jetta TDI
thangwook
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:57 pm

Previous

Return to Single Tank Systems and Blending

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron