Flush the veg oil filter with diesel

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Flush the veg oil filter with diesel

Postby VegMeister » Mon May 26, 2008 11:47 pm

Before parking the truck (even overnight). This (I've heard from someone with years of experience on a real fleet of about a dozen vehicles and having done MANY more conversions for others) is supposed to double the length of the filter element (for your veg oil filter).

I know this is hearsay but I totally truck this guy, he has years and years more experience than I do, he goes through thousands of gallons of WVO a week. Can anyone confirm this? I'm working on a diagram to propose a way to flush the Veg Oil filter on a cummins style setup.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
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Postby VegMeister » Tue May 27, 2008 1:00 am

Hey guys, I'm working on a diagram for a cummins setup.

Image

If you want to download an openoffice (version 3.0 is GREAT for diagramming things quickly and easily!!!!) file, try this link

http://vk6hgr.echidna.id.au/~gavin8or/cumminsidea1.odg

Thanks for looking, I hope to get some ideas out there on how to convert these cummins. Certainly to do a good job is not going to be cheap: the raptor is a 400$ pump. Why am I using the raptor? I don't want to work the VE any harder than I have to. I want this conversion to be able to run with no failures, since it's going on my dads truck. Already the parts list is going to be VERY expensive, compared to my personal conversion.

*edit* if you have any suggestions, please feel free to write and reply, but don't forget you could just open the odg file, edit it, and then email the changes to me! I'll upload them to my website and post any ideas/input back into this forum to help discussion.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
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Postby froggo » Tue May 27, 2008 3:45 am

Hi VegMeister,

I run a shared filter in my HJ45 Toyota[refer to converted vehicles thread].
After 10,000km on my current filter the vacc gauage shows no restriction of fuel flow through the delphi 296, 5micron cav filter.
I'm sold on the idea,

God bless froggo.
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it!

HJ45 Landcruiser, 2 tank wvo homemade system.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue May 27, 2008 8:46 am

Flusing with D2 would consume about a quart, or $1 worth of D2 per time on mine. My current VO filter is at 12k miles and 1 year. This means it would have cost me an extra $300 of D2 already to flush, so I don't mind if I need to change the filter every 14k, the elements are only $7, and mine is very easy to change.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby VegMeister » Tue May 27, 2008 1:44 pm

froggo, what is your take on the amount of d2 wasted for your setup? How much of a factor is that?

Also, does anyone have any comments about the diagram? I think the advantage for this setup is there there are 2 separate fuel systems.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
VegMeister
 
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Location: Pembine, WI

Postby hheynow » Tue May 27, 2008 1:54 pm

SunWizard wrote:Flusing with D2 would consume about a quart, or $1 worth of D2 per time on mine. My current VO filter is at 12k miles and 1 year. This means it would have cost me an extra $300 of D2 already to flush, so I don't mind if I need to change the filter every 14k, the elements are only $7, and mine is very easy to change.


I agree it's a waste of money. D-A-Y-U-M Sun Wizard those are remarkable filter life numbers. I guess it's attributable to your centrifuge. My system is plumbed so each fuel passes through its own separate filter so purging #2 through my vegoil filter can't occur. When I first installed my kit both fuels flowed through the stock engine filter so when I purged #2 would coat the filter but I never noticed a longer filter life that way but I changed that last year to two separate filters.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
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Postby WD8CDH » Tue May 27, 2008 3:12 pm

If you can't get a year out of a Veggie filter in your car, you need to improve your de-watering and filtering. I have NEVER had to replace a veggie filter because it became to plugged, even after over 70,000 miles. One of my conversions used the little stock MB fuel filter for the VO and I ran it for several years before I replaced it because it was rusty on the outside.

Back flushing uses more diesel fuel and risks rupturing the filter media possibly giving you unfiltered fuel to the IP.

I run looped return on VO with direct return to the VO tank during purge to prevent backflow thru the filter.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
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Postby hheynow » Tue May 27, 2008 4:04 pm

I find that hard to believe. Two years ago when my system was brand spanking new I was running virgin soy from Costco as I had no oil accounts yet. I never got over 6K on a vegoil filter. I can't believe centrifuged oil is cleaner than sealed cubies of new oil. If I get 5K these days I'm happy but average 4K. I'm using the Racor 10 micron R90T.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
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Postby David » Wed May 28, 2008 1:30 am

hheynow wrote:I find that hard to believe.


I'm not so sure I do. I imagine there are a lot of things that are required of commercially made oil. I would think many of them are chemical. I know with my WVO it can appear crystal clear but still be unfiltered and have water in it.
The micron ratings we chase are pretty fine and I can't think of a reason why a foodstuff would have a need to be filtered fine other than for clarity which could probably be achieved at 50 micron or more. If there is a little of the plant pulp in the oil from which it were pressed, to my uneducated mind there dosen't seem to be any apparent drawback with that. I also suppose the more they filter the oil, the less they end up with so a little particulate matter
would only serve to pad the overall product volume out a bit.

The original MB filters could only be described as glorified flyscreens and wouldn't stop much at all so I can't see much reason they wouldn't last indefinitely from a filtering standpoint. I replaced mine the day I got the car with an inline disposable filter with a proper paper element. People suggest these filters are around 20 Mic. but I believe they are much finer.

I usually replace mine every month as a matter of maintenance because if they block when the wife is driving the car, she gets the shits and just to make things worse for me, it always happens at the worst possible time.
$3 was never better spent on a persons state of mental well being and ability to relax. :D

Having got my filtering automated now, I will be going to 0.5Um filters until I get a CF system on line. The filter bags cost the same, due to pressurized and multi pass filtering, time is no longer an issue with the finer rated bags and IMHO, you can't have your fuel too clean.
When I get the cf setup, I don't expect changing any filters to be anything more than an annual event.

I have also thought of various ways of improving my filtrating process in order to get the longest possible life from the onboard filters but nearly everything is either uneconomical in time or cost.
The thing I think us veggers loose site of, is how dam well we are doing already.

If we had to change a filter with every tank full of oil we used and then complained to out friends that it was costing us $30 a tank to fill up, I doubt we'd get much sympathy when everyone else seems to be Paying around $100 to fill their vehicles.

Filters are very cheap in comparison to what we save on fuel so while I will always try to clean my oil to the highest standard I practically can, I'm also not going to get too upset about having to change them every now and then while I give thanks for the other benefits I enjoy.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby froggo » Wed May 28, 2008 4:29 am

Hi VegMeister,

it's funny that people are worried about using a little bit of diesel in their vehicles. I'm not worried about using one litre of diesel for my wvo>diesel purge. This equates to about $AU1.60. I'm looking at the amount of money I save by using wvo and not about how much it costs to purge.

The fuel filters, Delphi 296 cav cost me $4.50 each. I normally change them during my regular engine oil service[5000km].

The current filter I've decided not to change through winter to determine if my wvo system can handle the cold and do it's job on a older filter.

My vehicle is used for long trips so the purge cost is tiny compared to the amount of wvo that's consumed.

If your doing short trips then the amount of diesel is going to impact more on you than me. You need to decide what's important for you.

The reason I use one filter centres on the theory that I never need to heat the filter to make it flow. The filter will never block due to cold solid wvo. Less hoses to leak and lower setup costs.

It's part of the keep it simple stupid theory[KISS], that I have used on my system. No electronic valves or heating only manual systems and coolent heat,

God bless froggo.
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it!

HJ45 Landcruiser, 2 tank wvo homemade system.
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Postby SunWizard » Wed May 28, 2008 8:25 am

VegMeister wrote:Hey guys, I'm working on a diagram for a cummins setup.

A flaw in that setup is if you leave the raptor on during purge as you describe, you will be purging with a 50/50 VO/D2 blend.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby WD8CDH » Thu May 29, 2008 8:28 am

David wrote:
hheynow wrote:I find that hard to believe.


I'm not so sure I do. I imagine there are a lot of things that are required of commercially made oil. I would think many of them are chemical. I know with my WVO it can appear crystal clear but still be unfiltered and have water in it.
The micron ratings we chase are pretty fine and I can't think of a reason why a foodstuff would have a need to be filtered fine other than for clarity which could probably be achieved at 50 micron or more. If there is a little of the plant pulp in the oil from which it were pressed, to my uneducated mind there dosen't seem to be any apparent drawback with that. I also suppose the more they filter the oil, the less they end up with so a little particulate matter
would only serve to pad the overall product volume out a bit.

The original MB filters could only be described as glorified flyscreens and wouldn't stop much at all so I can't see much reason they wouldn't last indefinitely from a filtering standpoint. I replaced mine the day I got the car with an inline disposable filter with a proper paper element. People suggest these filters are around 20 Mic. but I believe they are much finer.
<snip>


Hi David,

It's more than just filtering that makes cooking grade virgin oil directly out of the cubie a poor fuel. Like you say, it is only filtered for clarity, but it is also not de-watered to "diesel fuel" specs. I have measured well over 1000ppm of water from unopened cubies of virgen oil.

If you are talking about the clear inline MB fuel filter, it may not even be 20 microns but the spin on filter is better. The spin on is probably 15 microns or 10 microns nominal. I have not found any other filters with 5 micron or less ratings that would fit.

I get the long life because my heated upflow settling is so effective at removing water and most other contaminants. My filtering is pass thru from the settling tank to storage. I don't use recirculating filtering because some of the oil in the stagnet corners of the tank doesn't get passed thru the filter.

My whole oil processing system is heated to keep the fats in the fuel but since it is heated to below the running temperature of my car, nothing that has passed thru my processing filter would be cloudy by the time it hits the veggie filter in the car. My processing filter uses a gravity fed heated 2 micron Racor 1000 element.

Even back 25 years ago when I was running Lard, I had no problems with grease filters.

I don't keep a spare grease filter in my car but I do keep a spare diesel filter and a few of the inline rough filters. I usually end up being forced to change a filter about every other year, but so far it has only been filters on the diesel side that plugged.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
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Postby chasee » Fri May 30, 2008 5:01 am

Here is my experience with WVO filters in a Greasecar TDI:

Initial install had return line T'd in before WVO filter, creating a hyper-filtration loop. Of course, this also meant purging did not backflush WVO filter. I could not get more than 1500 miles on a WVO filter.

My home filtering process is top notch, so filters were not clogging with particulate. I'd cut one open, it would look brand new, but it was certainly not passing any fuel through the filter medium.

I called Fleetguard. They told me that they have seen WVO clog the pores with wax that does not then melt again at high temp. A hyper filtration loop and sitting overnight with WVO would cause this. I agree, this was not a very technical explanation, but it was from the manufacturer.

I rerouted return T after WVO filter. This means the return fuel is not re-filtered, and purging backflushes WVO filter with D2.

As soon as I did that, filters seem to last forever. I change every 10K just to be safe, and I also fill the new ones with Liquimolly Dieselpurge when installing to get a nice injector cleaning.
2005 Golf GLS PD-TDI, 5-speed. Grease Car kit installed right off the lot when brand new. Running on WVO about 85% of the time.
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Postby Burbarian » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:45 pm

Regarding backflushing, it is not recommended with most fuel filters, as they are typically only reinforced on one side, and backflushing could rip the element and ruin it. However, with full metal cannister cartridge filters that have a perforated metal shroud both inside and outside the paper element like old style CAT filters, I too have found that backflushing makes the filter last considerably longer. Using hot filtered fuel to backflush a filter prior to shutdown clears the filter pores, and allows most of the captured junk to settle out. If you have a sediment trap, you'll often find it filling up with the settled backflushed debris. My D4D has a cup full of gunk in the sediment trap at every filter change. That volume of gunk would likely have clogged up at least 5-10x as many filters without backflushing. As a safety precaution I have an inline final filter just prior to the IP in case the primary fuel filter fails, and I've never had to change it.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
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1981 IHI 30F excavator
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Postby VegMeister » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:28 am

SunWizard wrote:
VegMeister wrote:Hey guys, I'm working on a diagram for a cummins setup.

A flaw in that setup is if you leave the raptor on during purge as you describe, you will be purging with a 50/50 VO/D2 blend.


That was a flaw in my description. The raptor would have to be turned off when you purge with d2
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
VegMeister
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Pembine, WI


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