RUG blending isn't as good......

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Postby 240Volvo » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:56 pm

IPA=isopropyl alcohol, correct? And are the lower numbers for viscosity better? the translation page doesn't indicate these clearly. Thanks!
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:37 pm

this companies translation I have found over the years to be a bit superior to babblefish and Google translations.

No hot link of a translated page available though.

go to

http://www.freetranslation.com/web.asp

then put the Shur address posted above into it.

Don't forget to set it to German to English Translation for this one.
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:46 pm

BMW Fan wrote:I... SCHUR MIX 80/15/5 SVO / RUG / IPA...
BMW.... any reports about if the VW Golf (2003) needs any mods to run the Shur?

Maybe better asked.. any mods suggested for it to run better on Shur?.

Im reallll close to going this way. Oil is collected and on going. motor and D.Craft centrifuge on the way. Going to buy the Euro chip for better milage (59ishmpg compared to US chip at 40ish)

I also have an older inline WVO fuel heater I can install (bought for this purpose) if its suggested.

Thanks for any insight you might have on this.
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Postby BMW Fan » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:11 pm

Hi George,

I remember that you are often involved in the Schur discussion.
Around 2005 SUSHI BLENDER has taken the steps to contact
Mr. Schur

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... #472108809

For your VW Golf 2003 with PD = Pumpe Duese injectors I would highly recommend that you familiarize your self with the VAG Diagnostic program.
( I assume you may have done that already )
A laptop is essential and very helpful.
It is possible to trick the software by cutting into the sensors cables and installing a 2 stage multi layer potentiometer.

BMW Fan

http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby mixer » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:02 pm

SunWizard wrote:It certainly is explosive, and I think Cummins has much better knowledge of this than you.
Hello SunWizard, I really do not need authority figures, because I have done the experiment. Obviously you have not. I have also lit straight gasoline, and guess what? Straight gasoline is not "explosive" unless one goes to some trouble to make it so. And, when gasoline is mixed with vegetable oil, it gets less explosive. Do try it.
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby BMW Fan » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:35 pm

I personally enjoy the ferry tales of our new member MIXER

Yesterday it was

mixer wrote: I have heard from numerous sources that ULSD is “just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it.” .


today it is already topped with

mixer wrote: I have heard that diesel engines have been used to burn coal dust in a slurry with water. It would be interesting to try that on an old Mercedes, but I bet it would cut the engine life short, because coal has some silica in it, which would likely wear the engine down in a short time.


I wonder what it will be tomorrow. Nice tales, very entertaining

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http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:27 pm

mixer wrote:And, when gasoline is mixed with vegetable oil, it gets less explosive. Do try it.
I guess you missed that I am talking about RUG vapors, which come off of a blend at any temp above -40F in amounts that are explosive. Did you try some vapors in an enclosed space? Its one thing I don't need to try, I believe the experts on this one.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:37 pm

BMW Fan wrote:Hi George,
...

For your VW Golf 2003 with PD = Pumpe Duese injectors I would highly recommend that you familiarize your self with the VAG Diagnostic program.
( I assume you may have done that already )...

It is possible to trick the software by cutting into the sensors cables and installing a 2 stage multi layer potentiometer.

BMW Fan...
yes I am familure slightly with the Vag Com. Luckly I have discovered a local fellow who is a computer expert and a VW nut. he has all the Vag Com's as well as all the other programs you can use to manipulate and/ or read the VW's computer system data. This includes the computer programs that no one else is suppose to have.. so I am very lucky to have met him.

He also has done the tricks (potentiometers) on one of his 5 vw diesels. His adjusments are to compensate for brown gas fumigation though.
Last edited by coachgeo on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:28 pm

I personally enjoy the ferry tales ...


Folk Let's stick with presenting opposing information that stimulates conversation instead of presenting info laced with jabs that stimulate emotional reactions.


Mixer- Glad your excited about this new industry of mixing fuels etc. Might I suggest you be more cautious of how you express information.

What happens is this such exciment unchecked tends to encourage someone to post info with an over emphasis. This ends up making what was posted to sound like they are stating it to be solid backed up piece of information... when it was meant to sound like antidotal info that the writer happens to give some credence too personaly, but has not strong evidence "Yet" to back it up.

For me it took a few spats to knock me up beside the head to realize I was guilty of the above. Took a bit longer to figure out how to check myself and write things better.

Keeping this in mind as you post info. This will help avoid little spats that just generated. In the long run the spats are a waste of time and dont promote informative discussion.

By the way... this is public posted only cause it's expresses good lessons for all of us to read and keep in mind as we toil thru boards like this one.
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Postby John Galt » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:12 pm

Blending with gasoline, naphtha, mineral spirits or any other volatile solvent presents a safety hazard that does not occur with kerosene, VO, or diesel fuel.
The vapors above any blend with a volatile solvent could be explosive, just like gasoline vapors.

If the blend contains gasoline treat it like gasoline, not like diesel fuel.
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:12 am

Another thing to consider with blending RUG is that in the US, most RUG is now 7-10% ethanol by law. There are many reported problems with using ethanol in diesel engines, here are some from detailed research that Cummins reports here:
http://regions.cummins.com/sa/pages/en/ ... C4A8F00000
This is for higher % of ethanol than we blend (through our RUG), but many of these issues are likely to happen with any % ethanol:
"Alcohol is a reactive chemical and can cause fuel system corrosion. Alcohol also will deteriorate and affect the performance of gasket and/or seal materials. There are confirmed accounts of ISB engine fuel pump failures due to the effects of alcohol induced de-lamination of an internal timing sensor component. Robert Bosch, the fuel pump manufacturer prohibits alcohol blended fuel in the VP44 fuel pump on the ISB/QSB Cummins engine."
"The fuel pump, a Robert Bosch VP44, failed an internal timing sensor (IAT) due to delamination of the foil caused by the presence of alcohol."

"Since E diesel is more volatile, it is more likely that the vehicle will experience pump and injector cavitation and hot fuel re-start problems. " (RUG is much more volatile as well as ethanol.)
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby mixer » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:24 am

Hello coachgeo, I appreciate your monitoring effort, because I agree with you, that just because we disagree with someone does not mean we should become abusive. And, grass-roots bio-fuels research by back-yard enthusiasts can lead to some conclusions for people that are not justified by the data. For instance, it is highly emotional to claim that gasoline mixed with vegetable oil is some how more explosive than gasoline by itself, and Cummins claiming so on their website, is completely unprofessional and irresponsible.

There are millions of cars traveling the roads of the world that are powered by gasoline, and almost everyone’s granny has pumped gasoline into an automobile. Should we really be suddenly concerned about gasoline when it is mixed with vegetable oil? Hardly!

However, I have been a technician for more than 35 years, and I even worked in petroleum research at Chevron research and automotive research as well, and I have been experimenting with blends of oils for fuel for more than three years, and I have been running vegetable oil blended with RUG in a 1983 Chevy van with a 6.2L V-8 diesel since February 2007, so my premises are hardly just emotional excitement over back-yard experimenting.

coachgeo wrote:Mixer- Glad your excited about this new industry of mixing fuels etc. Might I suggest you be more cautious of how you express information.

What happens is this such exciment unchecked tends to encourage someone to post info with an over emphasis. This ends up making what was posted to sound like they are stating it to be solid backed up piece of information... when it was meant to sound like antidotal info that the writer happens to give some credence too personaly, but has not strong evidence "Yet" to back it up.

For me it took a few spats to knock me up beside the head to realize I was guilty of the above. Took a bit longer to figure out how to check myself and write things better.


Running Diesel Engine With a Coal Slurry, By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: September 9, 1989, New York Times, Wednesday, August 27, 2008
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96F948260
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby 240Volvo » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:03 pm

mixer wrote: For instance, it is highly emotional to claim that gasoline mixed with vegetable oil is some how more explosive than gasoline by itself


Nothing has been said here like that. The things that have been said all refer to the characteristics of RUG regarding ignition and volatility. People have said that VO blended with RUG is AS VOLATILE, not more volatile than RUG. RUG vapors are explosive under conditions that VO, even blended with other solvents, is not. Comments have been made about the differences in diesel and converted diesel engines that oblige that precautions should be judiciously employed with the use of RUG.

I find some of the information that you are offering to be very interesting, but you should be more cautious in suggesting the how to handle dangerous fluids and vapors. I doubt that you would wish to be responsible for encouraging someone to do something that could cause grievous bodily harm or death to another person, or massive property loss.

If you do not wish to add to the distortion, you should not distort what other have said. You might also respond to some of the problems that others have pointed out regarding statements in some of your posts. Diesel is Kero+motor oil? Really? I'm sure that is not exactly what you meant.
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby mixer » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:37 pm

240Volvo wrote:If you do not wish to add to the distortion, you should not distort what other have said. You might also respond to some of the problems that others have pointed out regarding statements in some of your posts. Diesel is Kero+motor oil? Really? I'm sure that is not exactly what you meant.
Yes, I agree 240Volvo, so let us stick to the precise quote.
mixer wrote: I have heard from numerous sources that ULSD is “just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it.”
It was a generalized quote of what others have writen. And, I was endeavering to find out precisely what is ULSD diesel.

The enquiry all began with an apparent misleading statement by SunWizard at this URL: http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about231.html
To which I responded to respectfully at this URL: http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about231.html

If you wish to critic my writing, then please do refer to the full text of the dialog here to place your critic within context and in addition please also refer to the full text of my ruminations on this subject at the URL below (with text appended). Or, are you just having trouble following the dialog here or having difficulty with comprehension?

Hello blenders, if we blenders want to produce a mixed fuel of WVO and solvents, then we really should understand what precisely is diesel fuel. There has actually been some debate on the various bio-fuels forums as to what exactly constitutes D-1 and D-2 diesel fuels, which are winter diesel and summer diesel respectively.

If the reader were to examine the links below, they will show you the classic methods of Petroleum Distillation, and the typical fractions that come from the process. You will see that kerosene was never a part of the summer diesel (D-2) fraction; however, I have heard from numerous sources that ULSD is "just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it."

I have actually read this opinion expressed on a number of bio-fuel forums and disregarded the belief as urban legend until I had examined the sulfur content of various Petroleum fractions under the link for "Classification of Gas Oil" and began to accept that the common belief might be true. However, I have yet to find an authoritative source for this belief, and arguably there are other ways of reducing the sulfur content of petroleum fractions, other than to sell kerosene with motor oil in it, as diesel fuel.

Under diesel, wikipedia says, "the chemical composition of Petroleum-derived diesel is composed of about 75% saturated hydrocarbons (primarily paraffins including n, iso, and cycloparaffins), and 25% aromatic hydrocarbons (including naphthalenes and alkylbenzenes).[11] The average chemical formula for common diesel fuel is C12H23, ranging from approx. C10H20 to C15H28." This suggests it is just a cut in the distillation tower, and not "just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it."

However, I have yet to find a definitive source for what exactly is ULSD diesel today, but I am inclined to return to my original belief that D-2 diesel is just a fraction of the petroleum refining stream after the kerosene cut, which says D-2 is NOT "just kerosene with a little motor oil added to it." However, winter diesel (D-1) might be. If the reader would like a definitive answer, then I suggest that you download the ASTM D975 -08 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils. It is only $49.00. The link is below.

Green Fuels has a one-page document on the ASTM D975 -08 downloadable for free at the URL below. However, it is just a synopses, and does not state what goes into D-2 diesel other than to suggest it is still just a cut in the distillation tower after the kerosene cut.

Diesel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel

Liquid fuels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fuels

How Oil Refining Works
http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining4.htm

Modern Refining
http://www.pafko.com/history/h_refine.html

REFINING OF PETROLEUM
http://www.aip.com.au/industry/fact_refine.htm

Classification of Gas Oil
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/class ... d_165.html

ASTM D975 -08 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D975.htm
www.greenfuels.org/biodiesel/tech/ASTM-D975.pdf

Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle biofuels project
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Diesel fuel

Postby John Galt » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:44 pm

The product sold as 'diesel fuel' varies widely both regionally and seasonally.
Any generalized statements about 'diesel' can be both true and false depending on where you get your fuel.
ULSD must meet ASTM specs regarding sulfur content and lubricity. A mix of kerosene with zero-sulfur lubricating oil can meet that spec. Winter diesel in the far north is kerosene with lubricity additives.

D2 is much more variable, especially in climates where it never freezes.
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