RUG blending isn't as good......

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Postby 240Volvo » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:40 pm

mixer wrote:Or, are you just having trouble following the dialog here or having difficulty with comprehension?


I was respectful to you. I said that I found much of what you have been posting to be very interesting. I asked that you post with greater caution concerning the handling of volatile combustibles. Kids read this stuff, so there is good reason for it to be said as it had not occurred to you how your suggestion could easily be misapplied to grievous result. Encouraging someone to put a flame to gasoline in not a good idea. When I referred to a questionable statement that was a part of your post, I said that I was sure that it was not what you meant. Clarification is what was called for in response.

Your quote above is offensive.
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Fear of gasoline blending

Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:27 am

Hello 240Volve, I am very sorry if you found my previous response offensive; however, it seemed that there was an over-all offensive tone rising on this forum, because I advocate blending with gasoline, not that you were as offensive as others. You nonetheless stated that I was being irresponsible in some of my writing.

But, to the point, I find the fear around blending gasoline with vegetable oil irrational. Now, you mention that we should be concerned about kids trying blending vegetable oil with gasoline. Well, when I was a kid I mowed the lawn, which meant I had to handle gasoline for a two-stroke engine. And, many kids in North American culture do the same every weekend, in addition to riding dirt bikes, motor scooters and ATVs. So, how does my advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO become more dangerous in your mind than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil with gasoline?

I would suggest that your concern, as well as Cummins’ claim that blending gasoline with heavy fuel stock is explosive, is equally irrational. So, let us just consider that engineers who work for large corporations are just as subject to irrational fears and failures in logic and critical thinking as backyard enthusiasts, and let us recall that some very well established auto manufacturers at one time advocated blending gasoline with #2 diesel for winter operations (see link below). So, why should we be concerned about blending gasoline at 5-30% with WVO? You may find reading some of the following supporting sources helpful at dismantling irrational fears around blending gasoline with vegetable oil:
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:36 am

I will repeat what many others have said and you appear to keep missing, we are not saying RUG blends are MORE hazardous, we are saying they are equally hazardous as RUG due to the vapors.

I have no irrational fear since I take the needed precautions when handling RUG. Many people have no clue what those precautions are so I stated some of them in my post above. Downplaying the extreme fire hazard is a big disservice, as I have stated above. Many who use VO blends are doing so with non-explosion proof pump motors, sparking metals, storing large steel (sparking) barrels around garages, and doing far more dangerous things than the typical person who simply fills up their car at a gas station (and is ignorant of all the safety precautions that were done for them with their car, pump nozzle, explosion proof pump motor, anti-static spark design of pump hoses, proper grounding of everything, etc.).

Here are the statistics about RUG fires EACH YEAR:

>140,000 gasoline related fires, including 120,000 vehicles.
>6000 residential fires.
~500 people die each year.
Thousands visit hospital emergency rooms for gasoline related injuries.
$500 million in direct property damage cost per year from RUG related fires.

From a well documented source, the American Burn Association, with lots more info that is useful:
[url]www.ameriburn.org/Preven/2001Prevention/Educator's%20Guide.pdf[/url]
(you will have to cut and paste in your browser since it doesn't like the apostrophe in the URL.)

It is annoying when you continue to post the same long list of links in repeated posts. If you continue this I will consider it SPAM and start to edit your posts to remove this spam posting, or other moderating steps.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby 240Volvo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:43 am

Mixer,

You suggested putting gasoline (even blended) into an open container and put a match to it. That is not something I would do, and it is the kind of suggestion that I believe is ill-considered. I have encouraged teen-aged kids interested in this to follow this board because of the variety of well-experienced and well documented information available here. Kids do not need a lot of encouragement to do something risky, and that is the problem I have with this. It is not a responsible thing to suggest, and it is not presented in a way that would encourage safe handling of volatile fuels and their vapors. This is not irrational, quite the opposite. I have no problem handling gas, or with its use as a solvent. It needs study and data for everyone to understand what it is good for, and what problems it presents. Its vapors present issues that must be dealt with responsibly, even when blended.
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arning label placed on all of my posts advocate blending gas

Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:12 pm

I see SunWizard and 240Volvo, so you two are unwilling to put a cup of a mix of 5-30% gasoline in WVO into an open wide mouthed can away from buildings, pets and children and light it, to demonstrate who explosive, or lack there of the mix is. I assumed that both of you were adults, but since the issue of children came up, I have to agree with 240Volvo, you both may be under 18 years of age. Please excuse my assumptions.

Just to clarify, since 240Volvo suggested otherwise, in other than the above experiment, I never once advocated blending vegetable oil with gasoline in anything other than directly into the fuel tank from the pump at the fuel station. To do otherwise to me is shear foolishness.

Thank-you both for expressing your points of view. So, am I going to be allowed to continue to advocate blending gasoline with WVO? Or, do I need to have a warning label placed on all of my posts here from now on?

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle biofuels project
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby 240Volvo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:31 pm

When you behave in this way, you lose all credibility, regardless of the the interest or validity of any information you present. Name calling is really poor form.

Moderator?
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Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:50 pm

240Volvo wrote:When you behave in this way, you lose all credibility, regardless of the the interest or validity of any information you present. Name calling is really poor form.

Moderator?

Hello 240Volvo, I was not name calling. I was just responding to your concern. Now, I could say the same thing about the irrational fear that you and SunWizard are obsessing over. The more you obsess over this irrational fear of blending gasoline with WVO directly into the tank, the more you lose all credibility.

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle biofuels project
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby Burbarian » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:01 pm

Mixer,
Slowly pouring gasoline into a bucket of WVO and then lighting it produces an open flame that cannot be extinguished with water. The lighter petrol hasn't blended with the WVO yet and stays predominantly on the surface. Putting WVO in a bucket with a cup of petrol already in it will partially blend the mix, and putting a match to that will most likely not ignite. Blending that mix with a sparking power drill is ill advised, and has been documented in the Infopop forums to have caused at least one fire already. An already-blended mixture will not ignite and burn with an open flame. However, even a properly blended mix, kept in the bucket, will slowly outgas aromatic vapors. A blend that does not immediately burn can still cause the buildup of an explosive fuel-air mixture.

In an enclosed space like a shed or garage, it could potentially produce an explosive fuel-air mixture that has tragic consequences. This is vastly different from an open flame. A closed drum with an airspace having such an explosive mix is of no danger until it is opened. In a home-made fuel tank with the blend slowly outgasing and accumulating, there is the potential for such an explosive fuel-air mixture to be ignited, either by bad tank design, malfunctioning sender, or fuel vapors escaping from a trunk-mounted tank and becoming an explosive mix within the trunk or passenger cabin - a far greater danger as potential ignition sources are much more probable. This is in contrast to a factory built fuel tank that is mounted external to the cabin and designed to prevent such vapor ignition.

The experiment you propose is IRRELEVANT to the context of a WVO/Petrol blend in actual use. Yes, such a blend will not burn with an open flame. But that does not prevent it from outgassing vapors which could become explosive. As well, anybody trying your experiment may encounter the first case stated above, and could potentially do harm to themselves, their property, or others. The risk is there, and it was just being pointed out.

That being said, I've been using a WVO/RUG mix in my Changfa diesel generator for over a year now. I'm not afraid of blending and using blends. I've also tested such blends on my other vehicles. There is no 'fear' involved. Only a rational concern for potentially tragic results from a badly conducted and unsafe experiment.

Please, let us keep this a civil and intelligent discussion. Different points of view and disagreement with someone else's opinion are NOT attacks. Turning it into personal attacks is of no use to anyone, and destroys meaningful sharing of useful information.
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Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:13 pm

Hello Burbarian, it sounds like from your response that you have actually had the courage to try the experiment, because you stated, “An already-blended mixture will not ignite and burn with an open flame.” That is great news. We just needed one other person to do the experiment (not two dozen cub scouts) and report back to us. However, my experience was different from yours. My small sample of the fuel mix did ignite readily, but not explosively, and burned until all of the gasoline was burned of, but it burned so gently that it never ignited the oil.

Now, the point that some people seem to be missing here is, I have NEVER advocated blending solvents outside of the fuel tank except in small samples for experimental purposes conducted with adult supervision in a safe environment. I have found it is in fact unnecessary to do anything to mix gasoline with vegetable oil, because they mix readily. So, there is no reason to be using a “sparking power drill” to mix one’s fuel blend in a bucket in an enclosed room. One will find that if one goes to the gas station immediately after transferring filtered WVO into one’s fuel tank, then tops off with gasoline, then drives off, the mix will be complete after driving less than a block. If it is not, then one has animal fat in one’s mix, and I have already stated gasoline will not dissolve animal fat. In that case some other solvent will have to be used.

Yes, I agree with you, “a properly blended mix, kept in the bucket, will slowly outgas aromatic vapors.” And, I will agree that leaving a bucket of gasoline and oil around is not only a fire hazard, and a health hazard, it is also plain stupid, and I have NEVER advocated it. And, as I have already stated I have NEVER advocated blending fuels outside of the fuel tank, except in small quantities for experimental purposes only, and I do recommend in those cases to treat the mix as flammable and potentially explosive, and to leave it outside, away from buildings and children and pets and in the shade. Please see my essay on Experimental blending (see link below), where I did suggest extracting bottles of one’s blend for experimental purposes to observe it over time and temperature, and test its viscosity.

In the case of the fuel mixes that we have been discussing being stored in a fuel tank:
Fuel tanks in automobiles are designed for explosive liquids. They are thus vented so that they do not develop an explosive mix of air and gasoline, so storing a gasoline/vegetable oil blend in them is NOT an explosion hazard. Do, recall that blenders are generally one-tank unmodified consumers of waste oils.

Yes, lots of people on other parts of this forum, who are two-tank enthusiasts, are building their own tanks, but, they are probably not on this single tank forum. However, if they find themselves here, then if they are putting gasoline into a home made tank, they may very well be setting up a dangerous situation for themselves. So, in this case, do we harangue the messenger of gasoline/vegetable oil fuel mixes and suppress dialog on the subject? Or, do we recommend that the back-yard enthusiast build a proper tank? I’d say, lets take it to the tank builders and not harass the guy who is advocating and researching fuel blends with WVO and gasoline. Just because there are a few idiots out there mixing buckets of gasoline with sparking hand drills does not mean we should ban a dialog on gasoline blends.

Yes, the potential danger of mixing gasoline has been pointed out and obsessed over to the point of filibustered and suppressing any rational dialog on the subject here. So, do we need to obsess on it more? Just how much filibustering about the dangers of mixing gasoline with vegetable oil needs to take place here? Do we need to ban Jeff Brooks, so that the subject never comes up again? That may make some people here feel very comfortable.

And, as for keeping the subject civil: I would say that the abuse began with other people. But, if you want to suppress dialog on mixing gasoline with vegetable oil, then the best way to do that is to demonize its advocate, which you and others here are doing. Simon Wass and Patrick Kennedy on vegoil-diesel did it; and so did the moderators of biodiesel.infopop.cc. Frybrid did not even let my first post through. You may find the links on the subject of Forum Politics and filibustering the dialog on gasoline mixes with vegetable oil interesting. They are available below.

So, can we get back to a meaningful dialog on a blend of gasoline with vegetable oil, or do I need to put a bell on my self and call out “Unclean” every time I express myself on this forum? Or, are you all going to call me abusive and ban me, like Simon Wass on vegoil-diesel and Bob (The Trouts) and Shaun at biodiesel.infopop.cc did? Whatever you do, people are going to continue to experiment with blends of gasoline and vegetable oil. So, we might as well talk about it, or more idiots are going to hurt themselves with their sparking hand drills.

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle biofuels project
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby Burbarian » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:29 pm

Hello Mixer,
My fuel supply consists predominantly of solid-till +45C(112F) lard and tallow. I've got drums of the stuff from the local slaughterhouse, and refueling is a matter of using a grain scoop or a shovel, transfer to a bucket, then dump chunks of solid dewatered animal fat into a large steel ammo box with the lid off. (makeshift fuel tank once the lid goes back on) Thankfully animal fats don't readily polymerize, and a base mounted heated pickup is adequate to run the thing. I blend with K1/D1 and sometimes RUG using the Harbor Freight mortar mixer, forming a horrible looking slurry/paste. My blended-lard-paste fuel won't ignite from a match flame at up to 10% RUG concentration. Still, the only difference I've noticed between it and some used corn oil I have access to is just a longer wait before switchover. (Yes, I twin-tank as well as blend - RUG blends mostly in the generator and heavy equipment, twin tanking in the cars).
Regarding your previous reply:
But, if you want to suppress dialog on mixing gasoline with vegetable oil, then the best way to do that is to demonize its advocate, which you and others here are doing.

You will notice that bringing up concerns is NOT the same as suppression, demonizing and censorship.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:20 pm

My VO processing includes mixing VO, D1, and stale JetB together in a 30gal poly barrel. The mix is hand pumped from the barrel through a 5µ filter and into the vehicle or fuel container. The processing is in a well ventilated shed, away from the house. Tools which would generate sparks are not used.

I've used the same barrel pump to transfer highly volatile av-gas from barrels into wing tanks from the back of a pick-up. This happens at airstrips and float plane bases all over Canukland every day, accidents are rare. My VO-D1-jB mix is less hazardous than jetB[naphtha+kerosene], which is routinely used to fuel helicopters from barrels at remote sites with the same type of hand pump.

If any fuel mix is handled with the normal safety precautions of of it's most volatile component, then there should be no problems.
Last edited by John Galt on Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:36 pm

Hello Burbarian, I have no problem with bringing up concerns; however, if you review this thread I am quite sure you will find that I was not the one who began the abusive responses. Also, if you review the archives of vegoil-diesel and biodiesel.infopop.cc you will find that I was not given a chance to express myself without being harangued for my method and advocacy. You will also find if you review the links below that one individual became so obsessed with suppressing dialog on gasoline blending with vegetable oil that he took to sending me death threats. The individual has harassed me on two forums for over two years.

I believe that when one obsesses over the same argument, when it has been responded to many times, forms filibustering, which is a form of suppression. And, I believe this thread shows ample evidence of filibustering with fear mongering, which was the exact tool that the individual used who has harassed me for two years.

Thank-you ever so much for telling us about your blending experiments. Sorry to hear that you have to deal with lard. But, we waste oil consumers tend to deal with whatever comes freely our way. I have fortunately been able to avoid lard.

I personally would NOT recommend thinning lard at all with any petroleum solvent, because it does nothing but turn it into a slurry, as you reported, and a slurry is just a blend of suspended particles, which is only going to precipitated out later.

Please note: I do NOT recommend handling blended fuels with petroleum, or any other known flammable or toxic solvent and chemicals, and especially not in an enclosed space without proper protection. I DO recommend processing them in an enclosed system, such as a processing chamber that is fully plumbed to the fuel tank.

Please note: in the case of a solid oil source, such as animal fat, I believe it is better to heat it up to liquid form before pumping and filtering it.

I also do NOT recommend adding the solvent before filtration. And, DO recommend adding the solvent in the tank AFTER filtration. This will avoid exposure to toxic and flammable fumes.

You might want to take a look at my processing chamber (link above). It is basically a modified water heater. You could build one to heat up your lard to process it with. In fact I would recommend if all you have is lard, then turn it into bio-diesel, and use a chamber system like mine to do it in safely.

The bio-diesel process, by the way, is far more toxic, flammable and explosive, than anything that I have suggested, but we do not see people filibustering that dialog with fear mongering.

On the other hand if you really want to process your waste oil with solvents, then try using acetone as your primary solvent, you might be able to thin the lard using a small amount of it, say 1-10% of your lard, then you might find you can further thin that solution with gasoline. You might find that this method of combined solvent blending might be more cost effective and less toxic and less time consuming than the bio-diesel process. However, remember, I am NOT advocating using any solvents that are not enclosed in a processing system. Please, please, PLEASE, do all work with solvents in an enclosed system.

Before you work on large volumes of fuel blends, you may wish to experiment in small jars first to find out what mix of solvents you need to use for your oil source. Once you have figured out your blend on a small scale, then you could do it on a larger scale in an enclosed system and know what you are going to get when it is done.

Please excuse all of the CAPs. I was not attempting to be offensive, but some people here seem to need some emphasis.

I agree with John Galt
John Galt wrote:If any fuel mix is handled with the normal safety precautions of of it's most volatile component, then there should be no problems.
Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:06 pm

I am not obsessing or "filibustering" or fear mongering over the same argument, I (and 4 others) are simply responding to your claims that were so wrong and dangerous they need to be responded to. Its no wonder you have been banned at so many forums, and if you keep up like this (personal attacks on me, a moderator, and others) you will be banned here. I am not even responding to your personal attacks other than giving you this warning.

I linked many scientifically documented sites to show how your claims were wrong. I am glad you now admit that a RUG blend has the same fire and explosion hazard as RUG itself. The reason it kept going was you kept making false and potentially dangerous claims.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby 240Volvo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:38 pm

Mixer,

Quote an abusive response from me. Quote one from Sunwizard. Quote one from anyone on this thread other than yourself. You have been treated with respect by me and others, yet you persist in insulting and boorish behavior.

I and others brought up concerns about safety that were grossly deficient from your earlier posts. I did so in a respectful fashion. Yet, you call me a child, and distort and misstate what I have said. You owe me and others here an apology.

Your behavior is the issue, not the purely factual statements that you make. Statements regarding data can and should be challenged and argued. The great labs have always been characterized by dissent. I know men who worked at Bell Labs in its heyday, and they were an argumentative bunch, but they argued about the interpretation of data and its use in creating new things. You suggest that people, and especially I have have comprehension problems, but you refuse to comprehend the danger in what you have said. Then you backtrack to show how concerned you are with personal safety. An honorable person would say that they meant to clarify previous statements, and apologize for any confusion. But you belittle the people here who have genuine curiosity in seeking and establishing more ways to fuel our energy needs. That is not collegial behavior. There is no shame in making a mistake, whether it is factual or behavioral. But there is a great shame when a gifted person becomes a pariah through the failure to behave with common decency. It sounds like this has happened to you before. If a problem keeps happening, one must finally stop and consider, why. That is rational.
Last edited by 240Volvo on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:31 pm

I don't give a rats ass what you think of each other's credibility or behavior;
it has nothing to to with mixing RUG with VO.

If you want to get personal take it somewhere else like Frybrid where they revel in this sort of sandbox antics.
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