RUG blending isn't as good......

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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RUG blending isn't as good......

Postby roverhybrids » Sat May 31, 2008 6:38 pm

This thread is a spin off from here:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about266.html

SunWizard states:
"This is another reason why RUG blending isn't as good as using Kerosene or Diesel.
Lower auto-ignition temps than 410F fuels advance the timing, higher ones retard the timing. Chart here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels ... d_171.html "

I'm trying to argue against his statement even though i don't know what I'm talking about. I am trying to learn so bare with me.

SunWizard wrote:
roverhybrids wrote:Flash point is the "point" based on temp where a gas can be ignited. Ignition can come from a spark or flame as well as a high heat source(which in our application is hot air from compression)
Flash point is based off of vaporization, which RUG does at much lower temps than diesel.

So as my brain is trying to logicise, the low flash point of RUG allows it to further vaporize reaching the point of AIT sooner than diesel, even given diesels lower AIT??

No, study flash point further, even stated at the link I gave above. It requires a flame or spark to ignite. Hot air won't do it. This is why there are different figures for flash point and AIT. If what you are saying is true, then the AIT would always equal the flash point (if the flash point were lower.)

All of the fuels vaporize long before they auto-ignite. AIT is igniting vapors always.

RUG causes knocking but only because it explodes rather than the slower, more powerful burn you get from WVO or Diesel. But the explosion and knocking from RUG which can damage your engine occurs later (more retarded) than the same amount of Diesel in a blend.

But this is not the main point of this thread, which is that WVO retards your timing, making a quieter engine. Adding RUG causes a whole different knock, so the sound is no longer an indicator of whether your timing is retarded.


Some of my reasoning for discussing this is that I know on my vehicle(04 Dodge commonrail) that is will not cold start on P100 or anything close to that. Blends with diesel in the 50% range had hard start with lots of smoke. I know people that are using blends in this vehicle that include 5% RUG (amoung other things) and they are at least having success in the short term all stating it runs better than on diesel. So the RUG is definately helping it start, perhaps even burn better, if so why?
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Postby SunWizard » Sat May 31, 2008 6:50 pm

You would need to specify a temp for your cold start to be able to compare. My 95 Cummins will cold start on V100 at 50F with no trouble, then smokes for about 3 seconds. I have only done this 3x as a test.

For a decent comparison, you would need to run and compare at the same ambient temps a blend of V80/D20, and V85/RUG15 or other amounts.

RUG could make cold starting better, I haven't tested that. That still doesn't change the retarding of the timing, less power, and lower MPG it gives you. Its yet another area that will vary widely depending on your climate, engine, and type of VO and blend ratios. Careful testing with your own conditions is always the best.
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Postby John Galt » Sat May 31, 2008 8:34 pm

The common solvents available for mixing with VO are
[a] D2
[b] D1/KErosene/JetA/Stove Oil
[c] RUG/NAptha/JetB
in order of increasing volatility.

I suspect that a mix of VO with a percent of type [b] and a percent of type [c] solvent will come close to the burn characteristics of D2 type [a].
The specific percents will vary with vehicle fuel systems, different operating temperatures and different types of VO.

I'm experimenting with mixes of D2+VO+jetB+D1 in an '89 3.4L TDI.

curently using 60% D2 20%VO 10%D1 10%JB
operating temperature above freezing 5°C to 25°C

Good success so far over 2 years 30k with various VO mixes, no smoke on cold start, minimum smoke on heavy acceleration [less than with D2], no noticeable loss of power or MPG, emissions tests very clean.
Last edited by John Galt on Sat May 31, 2008 11:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby denson » Sat May 31, 2008 8:54 pm

I have been blending with 70% D2, 20% VO, 5% stale RUG, 2.5% naptha, 2.5% diesel cleen cetane boost. Ambient temps here in southwest Florida have been around 80 degrees. I have driven about 3000 miles on this mix with no red flags so far. Hardly any smoking at all unless the temps drop below 50 overnight and I cold start in the morning. even then only minimal smoking occurs. My truck sounds the same on 100% diesel or this mix. 2005 F-350 6.0 TDI
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Postby David » Sat May 31, 2008 9:10 pm

Blending with RUG is far from all bad.
Having used RUG and many other blends ( pretty much all I could get my hands on) I have to say it may not be the optimal blending agent engine wise but for many vehicles, it is certainly a very viable blending agent and has several things in its favour.

RUG is easier to get that some other blending agents like Kero, B100 or turps in many places.

It is the thinnest of the blending agents so although the percentage you can use is limited, its thinning power is the best.

RUG is cheaper here in OZ than anything else you can blend with. I believe Diesel may be cheaper in many places but thanks to taxes, here it is about 15C/L more exy than unleaded ATM.

I have found RUG to be very effective in helping with cold weather starts. When using any of the other blending agents, I have found the addition of 5% RUG makes starting better in my old car.

In my own tests, RUG is the most effective blending agent at lowering the gel point of WVO and as a friend has recently tested and found, it also lowers the gel point of Bio very effectively as well. As mentioned above, the percentages it can be used at vary with a number of factors but having done testing on my own vehicle and discovering what works best, I would use it at with complete and utter confidence.

I have found RUG to work very well as a blending agent and honestly think that there is a lot of ill founded misinformation about it that has become almost " Folk law" these days.

Certainly it isn't the perfect blending agent and If I could get Kero as easy and cheaply as I could get RUG, that is what I would go for myself. The fact is, there are few places to get Kero in bulk here and it is way more exy than RUG as well.
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Postby Zulu » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:36 am

I have a W123 300D that runs on V100. Here in South Africa we get a lot of Palm Oil. Now in the winter time when the night time temp goes as low as the a bone chilling 8 or 9 degree Celcius, the oil goes hard/gels. What would be the best to add to it to make it stay fluid, the day time temp is round 22-25 Degrees. I could add a heater to my tank but that would only be for the winter and seems such a mission, if I could quite easily just add something.

BTW, my hand book says that the diesel may be diluted with as much as 30% Petrol to stop the diesel from gelling... great, but this means that the injector pump can handle this dilution of petrol...

Any Comments.... Flame away here...
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:14 am

Zulu wrote:...BTW, my hand book says that the diesel may be diluted with as much as 30% Petrol to stop the diesel from gelling... great, but this means that the injector pump can handle this dilution of petrol...

Any Comments.... Flame away here...
The engine in the 300 is an animal like no other except maybe its varriants in the few other vehicles that engine design is used (240D, some buses and trucks). . . Nothing seems to be as tolerent to alternative fuels than that engine.

Thus comparing it to other engines and fuel systems and how well they may use VO fuels is nearly an apples to oranges thing.
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Postby John Galt » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:31 am

Information on the basic rugged well designed MBenz 300 is very useful as a baseline to which other engines can be compared.
Toyota-Hino B series and H series engines are of similar design with inline IPs, and are equally tolerant of variations in fuel viscosity.
One might rate the newest computerized wonder-truks from GM\Ford\Crys at the opposite end of that comparison.
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:58 pm

John Galt wrote:Information on the basic rugged well designed MBenz 300 is very useful as a baseline to which other engines can be compared.
Toyota-Hino B series and H series engines are of similar design...
I would have to retract my statement when one was looking at it like a baseline. Your right for that purpose it makes since.

Course then again you cant change an hunk of metal made by one manufacture to act like a hunk of metal made by another.

Hino- I thought that was Nissan derivative not a Yota?
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MB 240-D 10%RUG, 3000 mile update

Postby td2dv » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:50 pm

I've got a quarter million mile Benz I've been experimenting with. I settle clear restaurant cooking oil for a few days and siphon the best off the top into a 5 gal water cooler jug. I mix in 10% RUG and up-end the jug into a blue jean pants leg filter which drains into a 30 gal plastic fuel bowser. I then pump the mix into the Benz as needed. It started in the familiar way at first but after a thousand miles or so began needing longer cranking to start. It used to briefly make blue black smoke on start-up with D2 but cleared up on the WVO/RUG mix. I've been running the mix for about 3000 miles and plan to run 5 gal D2 next time the reserve light comes on to see if the crank time and smoke characteristics revert. I have yet to replace the the fuel filter that was on the car when I got it in 2002 and has been in daily use since.

I tried running unsettled junk oil through a modified Acme centrifuge and quickly overwhelmed it with sediment. I too didn't trust the Acme to run unattended and couldn't afford to spend the time monitoring it.

One thing that makes the Benz a good candidate for burning blended fuel is the lift pump. It is mounted by the injection pump and draws fuel from the tank through a course inline plastic filter. It then pumps the fuel to and through the secondary filter which is mounted up by the power steering pump. It is a spin-on canister type filter element and thought to be 10 micron mesh. If it ever seems to have clogged, try pouring a big pot of boiling water over it to make sure it didn't just fill with Crisco.

denis in Minneapolois
Benz 240-D
Minneapolis
WVO/RUG (10%) 5 mo/yr
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Postby rkpatt » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:49 pm

On RUG blending - Where I live (big metro SE city) , all of the gas pumps now have signs show " Contains up to 10% ethanol " . I wonder how what the effect of the ethanol ( positive or negative ) using it in 10-15% blend with WVO ?

Thanks
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Postby td2dv » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:58 pm

Ethanol tends to absorb moisture so I don't see a lot of problems if it's not allowed to sit in the tank for a long time. I ran the Benz back down to reserve on D2 and just filled it up with WVO/RUG 10%. The starting characteristic returned immediately so I guess that's how that is. I replaced the 88ºc thermostat with an 80ºc and the WVO just runs hotter than D2. My gas milage went from 30 on D2 to 32+ on WVO. The only complaint is having to crank it a little longer when cold.
When the evenings start to approach freezing I'll switch back to D2.
I split a case of 5 micron sock filters from Grangers and put my denim filter inside. Those denim filters are so tight there is little more than a stain in the 5 micron after 15-20 gallons. I mix in the RUG before filtering.
All is well here, waiting for the big surprise after ~3000 miles.
=)
Benz 240-D
Minneapolis
WVO/RUG (10%) 5 mo/yr
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Postby John Galt » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:48 am

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Postby td2dv » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:41 am

read on please
Last edited by td2dv on Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Benz 240-D
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WVO/RUG (10%) 5 mo/yr
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Postby td2dv » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:00 am

Long convoluted read.
Interesting logic around cetane/octane relationship. Since my operating temp went up I'm assuming there are no deposits forming. A pump and injector man with over 20 years experience in the trade listened to my old Benz and said he couldn't tell the difference.
I'm going to keep running this blend until the weather gets too cold. I showed you guys my test-tube viscosity tester at 32ºf and the 10% blend did not cloud; the straight WVO did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4hgvSe3c2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiGdk2VSglk
This WVO/RUG blending seems to be the easier softer way (my favorite).
Benz 240-D
Minneapolis
WVO/RUG (10%) 5 mo/yr
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