Critique my twist on cold upflow settling

Collecting, filtering and dewatering of WVO SVO vegetable oil. For Biodiesel producers too.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby WD8CDH » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:57 pm

VegMeister wrote:Upflow, then centrifuge? Why? You're not going to save filters with the upflow because the pre-centrifuge filtering is all done with washable screens.


The settling won't save filters (that aren't being used) but will reduce the cleaning of the CF needed.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby powerstroke73L » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:07 pm

WD8CDH wrote:The settling won't save filters (that aren't being used) but will reduce the cleaning of the CF needed.


Definitely. If this reduces my CF time from say 4 hours to 2 hours, to me that's worth it in terms of time and electricity. In this day and age of rising rates for electricity, the less time I have to turn a pump and power heating elements the better.
powerstroke73L
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 am

Re: Critique my twist on cold upflow settling

Postby WD8CDH » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:09 pm

powerstroke73L wrote:<snip>
As an experiment I added 5 gallons of diesel fuel, 1 quart of Power Service Diesel Kleen, and 4 ounces of Power Service Bio Kleen just to see how it would hold up. The barrel sat sealed behind my shed outside for all this time.

Basically what I've decided to do is use this oil as my "seed oil" in the sense that any new oil I add to the system will mix with it before any oil is pushed out of the system into the storage barrel. I am curious as to how diesel fuel/PSDK will affect the settling process. <snip>


The diesel fuel will probably not hurt the settling but the other additives might. Some additives help water to coalesce and drop out but others like alcohol tend to disperse and suspend water making it nearly impossible to de-water. In extreme cases, you may have to bubble wash to remove the alcohol and then mist wash to remove water soluable contaminants before de-watering.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Re: Critique my twist on cold upflow settling

Postby powerstroke73L » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:54 pm

WD8CDH wrote:The diesel fuel will probably not hurt the settling but the other additives might. Some additives help water to coalesce and drop out but others like alcohol tend to disperse and suspend water making it nearly impossible to de-water.


Hmmm...even with a centrifuge? Sun?
powerstroke73L
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 am

Postby SunWizard » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:57 pm

Yes I agree with WD8CDH.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Re: Critique my twist on cold upflow settling

Postby WD8CDH » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:54 am

powerstroke73L wrote:
WD8CDH wrote:The diesel fuel will probably not hurt the settling but the other additives might. Some additives help water to coalesce and drop out but others like alcohol tend to disperse and suspend water making it nearly impossible to de-water.


Hmmm...even with a centrifuge? Sun?


There isn't much that you can do with a CF that you can't do with upflow settling or the other way around. A CF is a lot faster settling but a lot less oil at a time. They both are using gravity to seperate things of different densities. If one thing is dissolved or an emulsion in another, they won't seperate with either.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby canolafunola » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:18 am

I did some limited tests with upflow settling in a crude system. It was outdoors, not insulated or heated. I had clear PVC hoses on the upflow out of the barrels so I could see the oil at all times. I had some almost black oil in a sucker tank in a car that was heated by the sun for 24 hours before pumping into the 30 gal funnel that feeds the first upflow barrel, so the oil going in was very likely at a higher temp than the oil already in the upflow barrels. It would take approx 48 hours for the 30 gal funnel to empty. But what surprised me was how quick I saw the color change in the light colored oil in the clear upflow hose to dark VO (within 1/2 hour). The only explanation I can give is the higher temp dark oil is rising immediately to the top instead of staying at the bottom, defeating the upflow settling process.

For those who use unheated upflow:

1. Have you experienced this?
2. Do you take precautions to insure that the oil going in the upflow barrel is at a lower temp than what's in there?
93 Gulfstream RV w Cummins 5.9 diesel pusher
canolafunola
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:27 am

Postby John Galt » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:47 am

Yes, I make sure the oil going in is not warmer than the oil in the upflow barrel.
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Postby powerstroke73L » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:25 am

Wow-so all of this could be an exercise in disaster :oops: Regardless, I think my plan from this point forward will be to keep utilizing the upflow system as I have been and invest in the water test kit from Utah Biodiesel Supply. Just over $4.00 per test (50 tests) is a bit steep, but $200 isn't that bad considering all of this has cost me my time and not much else. I guess we'll see how it goes...
powerstroke73L
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 am

Postby John Galt » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:36 am

so all of this could be an exercise in disaster


all of what 'could be an exercise in disaster' ?
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Postby powerstroke73L » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:42 am

John Galt wrote:all of what 'could be an exercise in disaster' ?


The fact that I'm using the barrel of WVO/diesel/additive mixture in my upflow setup. Basically what Sun and others have said is that the additives in the mixture (Power Service) may made any water in the blend impossible to remove. However, it was also mentioned that the primary culprit of this is alcohol. I just read this heartening news on the Power Service website:

Do Power Service diesel additives contain alcohol?

The only product manufactured by Power Service that contains the type of non-harmful alcohols recommended by engine manufacturers for removal of water is Power Service Diesel 911. Diesel 911, as its name implies, is used to solve the fuel emergencies diesel engine operators most commonly encounter. In winter, Diesel 911 reliquefies gelled fuel and de-ices frozen fuel-filters in a matter of minutes, eliminating the need for a tow truck. Diesel 911 also removes water from the fuel system to prevent icing problems and extend the life of fuel-filters, fuel injection pumps and fuel injectors.

No other Power Service product contains any alcohols of any kind, including Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement +Cetane Boost and Diesel Kleen +Cetane Boost.
powerstroke73L
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 am

Postby WD8CDH » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:40 pm

Unfortunatly other addatives , not just alcohol cause the same problem, most detergents, some pour point depressants, some lubricity modifiers etc.

Sometimes they prevent water settling but sometimes they just slow it down.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

store first, then CF or CF first, then store

Postby HoldOnTight » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:22 pm

I think your indirectly asking the question: Is it is better to store and then CF filter or the other way around.

I don't have actual test data, but the lubrication industry believes that cleaning the oil as soon as possible is preferred. Their reasoning is that contaminants provide fertile ground for undesirable processes, such as neutralization of addatives, acid buildup... Removing animal fats early is good if you want to reduce the odor of the oil.

I think you would be best off if you CF the oil to remove the water and contaminants, and then store the cleaned and dewatered oil.

Other thoughts/opinions?
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
HoldOnTight
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:40 pm
Location: Dayton OH

Postby WD8CDH » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:30 pm

I think the most important thing is to de-water before storage. Final CF, filtering or polishing etc can be held off until later.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby SunWizard » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:37 pm

WD8CDH wrote:I think the most important thing is to de-water before storage. Final CF, filtering or polishing etc can be held off until later.

I agree. The CF is the easiest & quickest way to dewater, you get some filtering included and then you don't need it later.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

PreviousNext

Return to Vegetable oil Collecting, Filtering and Dewatering

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests