Coolant Heated Spin-on SVO Filter.

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Coolant Heated Spin-on SVO Filter.

Postby Welder » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Hi guys.

I need your input on something.

I've got a few differend SVO filter designs (all coolant heated), some use drop-in style elements while others use spin-on style elements.

Some time back I built a prototype of one of the drop-in style filters, but I wasn't satisfied with the final result, so I shelved that design and will eventually redo it with a more suitable drop-in element.

In the mean time, I'm developing a coolant heated spin-on style SVO filter. In my design, the filter can is heated internally with a coolant circuit, not externally with a hose wrap or flexible electric heating pad.

Anyway, the various different brands/models of spin-on element that have suitable dimensions and micron ratings generally seem to cost between about $30 to $40 each (retail).

I can afford this price for my own use, but I had considered selling these filters to the VO community and I wanted to get some feedback on what people think of the general design concept and the replacement filter cost.

Clearly a newbie who does inadequate pre-filtering will clog up his on-board filters far sooner than someone spinning their WVO back to a near virgin state of cleanliness.

Heating a spin-on internally will lose efficiency due to the out-to-in flow pattern, but by the time a two tank system was up to safe SVO switchover temp, the entire filter can would be thawed/thinned and the veggie lines would also be hot enough to feed hot veggie into the filter. Of course a small HE could be installed just ahead of the filter to guarantee smooth flow in systems with poorly heated veggie lines.

Anyway, I'm interested in any honest feedback you guys may have about this concept because I'm going to build a couple for myself and a few friends, but after prototype functionality testing, I may make a small batch for test marketing if people show any positive interest.

Even people who have no current need for buying a veggie filter are welcome to post their opinions as they may have valuable insights and advice to offer.

I posted this topic on infopop too:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 1821083352




Thanks in advance!
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
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Re: Coolant Heated Spin-on SVO Filter.

Postby hheynow » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:53 pm

Welder wrote:
In the mean time, I'm developing a coolant heated spin-on style SVO filter. In my design, the filter can is heated internally with a coolant circuit, not externally with a hose wrap or flexible electric heating pad.


Anyway, I'm interested in any honest feedback you guys may have about this concept because I'm going to build a couple for myself and a few friends, but after prototype functionality testing, I may make a small batch for test marketing if people show any positive interest.

Even people who have no current need for buying a veggie filter are welcome to post their opinions as they may have valuable insights and advice to offer.





Material of filter head?
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
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Location: California

Postby Welder » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:33 am

I know people would likely prefer stainless, but I'm thinking that mild steel would be fine.

Part of that reasoning is related to cost, but it's also about material characteristics. Mild steel is less brittle and stainless steel and aluminum are both susceptable to threads galling together. Galled stainless threads can be hell to unscrew.

I'd paint any exterior surfaces, but the heater spike would be bare steel.

Yes, I know about polymerization, but I figure that IPs, injectors and injection lines are unavoidably steel anyway, so it can't be that bad.

Dry veggie won't rust bare steel.

Veggie that gets used within a reasonable period of time won't be able to polymerize before it leaves the exhaust pipe anyway.

I might make some stainless ones too, but I really don't think it's necessary. I don't think anyone makes stainless steel spin-on filter elements, so the element will always have a steel shell anyway.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby hheynow » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:05 am

Welder with everything I've read here and elsewhere IMO milled steel is the worst material to use especially in a heated vegoil situation. I was hoping you were thinking of aluminum. I've seen filter heads made of black iron, aluminum and pot metal (gray zinky soft cheap stuff) and SS is far too pricey for me.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
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Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:10 pm
Location: California

Postby Welder » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:59 pm

hheynow wrote:Welder with everything I've read here and elsewhere IMO milled steel is the worst material to use especially in a heated vegoil situation. I was hoping you were thinking of aluminum. I've seen filter heads made of black iron, aluminum and pot metal (gray zinky soft cheap stuff) and SS is far too pricey for me.


As I understood it, copper is worse than regular steel, but air exposure and excessive heat are the the biggest factors. IIRC, in paint making, oil is literally boiled in the presence of both air and magnesium.

There's a world of difference between a heated steel fuel tank with veggie sloshing around with an air pocket above it versus hot oil being sucked through a hot steel filter head that has no air in it. As I said, everyones IPs, injectors and injection lines are steel. Most lift pumps are at least partly steel too.

Tim Cook on infopop once told me that he has stored dry veggie oil in a bare steel drum (filled to the very top) and after 2 years of storage, there was no visible poly. Of course, heat changes the chemical dynamics, but again, air exposure is a bigger factor than what metal is selected .

Testing will tell the tale, but I don't think it will be any different than what everyones engines are already doing to their oil anyway.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Welder » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:45 am

Okay, here's a funny situation:

Fter analysing my design, I see that in order to change filter elements, the user would need near double the overall filter assembly height in order to lslide the elements down off of the heater spear. Remember that the heater spear is filled with coolant and penetrates deep down into the filter element to heat thin the filter contents.

Basically, I'm talking about a Hot Fox in afilter can.

The Problem is, in order to change elements, the area under the filter assembly would need to be at least double the overall height of the filter assembly.

After realising this obstacle, I'm wondering if this concept is really practical for the average 2 tank SVO user.?.?.?

I mean, I know that some SVOers would have their veggie filters mounted on their trucks framerails, but for those trying to stash their veggie filters filters discreetly away in the trunks of newer Mercedes, this design may be problematic.

This is one of the elements I was considering:

http://www.mytelus.com/ncp_news/article ... ID=2935505

Any comments?
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Burbarian » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:44 am

Make the spear removable from the top by unscrewing, with an o-ring seal? So before changing filters, remove the spear first.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
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Postby WD8CDH » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:43 am

Hi Welder,

I have found the heater spear inside of a spin on filter to be only slightly better than no heat at all because of the oil flow direction. Just heating the head itself seems to work somewhat better.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
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Postby hheynow » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:06 pm

Welder wrote:
After realising this obstacle, I'm wondering if this concept is really practical for the average 2 tank SVO user.?.?.?


Any comments?


Reminds me of the acronym KISS (keep it simple stupid). :mrgreen:
Every heated filter element I've seen under a hood seems to be a PITA to replace. I'm glad both of mine are under my truck giving free access to change them.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
hheynow
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:10 pm
Location: California

Postby Welder » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:05 pm

Burbarian wrote:Make the spear removable from the top by unscrewing, with an o-ring seal? So before changing filters, remove the spear first.


I thought about that before, but even though I can design the threaded mating parts and sealing surfaces fairly easilly, the coolant in/out hoses and fuel out hose would be attached to the top of the heater spear.

Even with ball valves and cam-locks to facilitate easier removal of the hoses, it would still likely be a major PITA to remove the hoses, then unscrew the element, slide the heater spear upward, then finish removing the element from under the head. It seems that a immovable head assembly would be both easier to build and easier to use.

The problem is that removing the elements would require clearance (empty space) under the filter element slightly greater than the length of the element.

For greasers with their veggie filter mounted with decent space under the element, it would be no problem changing elements, but this thing would not function easilly in the trunk of someones sedan or SUV unless the mounted it high enough to unscrew clogged filters and slide them downward off of the heater spear.

In order to atchieve acceptable efficiency, I need to develop the system around filters that are significantly longer than they are fat. Two to 3 times longer would be nice. The reason for that requirement is that the diameter of the heater spear is unchangeable and is limited to the size of the hole in the top of the element. Since the diameter of the heater spear is what would be transfering heat into the oil, it is important to choose tall, skinny filters in order to have some guarantee that the spear can thaw/thin the entire veggie filter (from the inside out) before switchover.

Thanks for trying to help though, Burb. I appreciate the effort.

I guess the question of whether or not this type of filter design would be practical can be answered by asking how many SVO greasers mount their veggie filters with access space under their filter assemblies somewhat greater then their filters.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Welder » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:10 pm

WD8CDH wrote:Hi Welder,

I have found the heater spear inside of a spin on filter to be only slightly better than no heat at all because of the oil flow direction. Just heating the head itself seems to work somewhat better.


Thanks for your input WD8CDH.

I addressed flow direction in my first post.

Yes, I know there will be an efficiency loss, but since the filter is only meant to thaw/thin the veggie before switchover, I don't think it will be any major obstacle. Anyone using HOH plumbing can install a FPHE just ahead of their veggie filter, and anyone using TIH veggie lines will likely be pushing hot veggie into the filter anyway.

What style of plumbing are you using on your veggie lines?
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby WD8CDH » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:23 pm

Hi Rodger,

The FPHE would be better as the last heat exchanger so needing to put one also before the filter would be getting expensive and space consuming. Without the FPHE before the filter, HOH would be problomatic with some oils in cold weather. TIH would probably be ok most of the time if the distance from the TIH to the filter was very short.

I always use TIH now. I gave up on HOH years ago because of slower switch over times in cold weather and the bulk with insulation.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby Welder » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:30 pm

hheynow wrote:
Welder wrote:
After realising this obstacle, I'm wondering if this concept is really practical for the average 2 tank SVO user.?.?.?


Any comments?


Reminds me of the acronym KISS (keep it simple stupid). :mrgreen:
Every heated filter element I've seen under a hood seems to be a PITA to replace. I'm glad both of mine are under my truck giving free access to change them.


The design is actually fairly simple, it just poses some extra mounting obstacles that's all.

The way you've got your veggie filter installed (under the truck) would work fine with my design assuming that the clearance between the bottom of the filter and the road surface was a little more the filter elements length.

Since your veggie filter is mounted under your truck, do you find it necessary to insulate the filter against wind chill?
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby Welder » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:47 pm

WD8CDH wrote:Hi Rodger,

The FPHE would be better as the last heat exchanger so needing to put one also before the filter would be getting expensive and space consuming. Without the FPHE before the filter, HOH would be problomatic with some oils in cold weather. TIH would probably be ok most of the time if the distance from the TIH to the filter was very short.

I always use TIH now. I gave up on HOH years ago because of slower switch over times in cold weather and the bulk with insulation.




Yes, I agree that a FPHE should be in place just before the IP, but considering the money people save running on WVO, I'm sorta surprised how people can be so hesitant to spend a little extra on their systems.

Convience costs. For example, you are right that a HOH is likely less efficient in thawing/thinning veggie lines than TIH, but many greasers choose that plumbing style anyway because of the ease of installation. The convenience of easy installation costs them longer warm-up times (interestingly, some HOH users claim no discernable delay observed).



If I were to build these filters for sale, I would include a small tubular HE to counter the flow direction issue. The style would be very simple. I've heard that simply wrapping a 3/8" copper tube around a 5/8" steel pipe and soldering the contact area will provide enough heat exchange efficiency to be useful in certain applications. Certainly this would be cheaper to build than buying FPHEs to include with every filter assembly, but perhaps buying large enough quantities of FPHEs would reduce costs acceptably.

Since peoples motor oil filters are mounted under their hoods, perhaps having this type of veggie filter and HE mounted just before their IPs would be a convenient filtration solution. It would "kill two birds with one stone", so to speak, as their veggie filter would work well and they'd also have a FPHE near their IP.

Gotta run to work. See you guys later.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
Welder
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 am
Location: B.C. Canada

Postby hheynow » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:26 pm

Welder wrote:
Since your veggie filter is mounted under your truck, do you find it necessary to insulate the filter against wind chill?


Wind chill only affects humans. :mrgreen: Originally I insulated the filter on my Vormax but insulation does not produce heat and heat rises. :roll: Then I used Dana's heated coil design with my coolant loop. Then I realized what a PITA it is to remove when I need to change filters. Then I installed a 12v 70watt pad heater with a relay and illuminated dash switch. Problem solved!
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
hheynow
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:10 pm
Location: California

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