Diesel thru single FPHE or not??

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby Welder » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:28 pm

biovindiesel wrote:Without need to direct flame, hate, or angst at anyone..
Can we all agree that backflushing a filter is not the best idea?
Here is why, in a three part mini-series event.

Episode One:
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Episode Two:
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Episode Three (3):
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© 2008 ~Cv aka biovindiesel




There's another good reason to NOT backflush. Reversing pump flow might tear the clogged filter membrane since most filter elements are engineered for one flow direction only. Basically, most elements only have support tubes on the inside of the pleated membrane, so reversing flow may stress the membrane to the point of rupture.

I know that proponents of backflushing may point out that some industries regularly backflush their filters, but the big question is whether or not these people verified the construction of backflushable filters before they recommended other people doing it on their vehicles. If it turns out that backflushable filters are structurally identical to regular filters, then that sort of indicates that no support tube is required on either side of the filter element membrane.

I'm betting that someone already mentioned this issue somewhere either here or on infopop, but I'm not aware of it because I never considered backflushing to be helpful anyway, so I never read those threads.

The only reason I read any of this thread was for the curious notion that WVO would drop glycerine into filters. If that actually ever happened, nobody would ever brew biodiesel, they would just use special SVO filters to transesterify their WVO. Using filters to remove glycerine would be cheaper and safer than buying methanol. No more titrating, no more mixing methoxide, no more fires or explosions.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
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Postby BMW Fan » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:09 pm

John Galt wrote:Klaus, thanks for clearing that up, and I apologize for the strength of my comment.

Here's some 'food for thought'. If summer diesel is a saturated solution of paraffin, then is it possible that the addition of VO to that solution might cause the paraffin to precipitate from the solution? Might this also cause fats in the VO to also precipitate out, especially when the mix cools overnight?


Hi John,

The amount of paraffin is not near to saturation.
It needs the low temperature to drop out. That is my experience in Nova Scotia with summer Diesel and my experience from Germany.
I have a mix of 80 % veggie and 20 % Diesel sitting on the baseboard of my kitchen window for several years. ( since July 24, 2005 )
No “wax” drops out if temperature is above 0 degree Celsius.
Below O degree it gets milky then I see flocks.
Now, how do I know if it is paraffin or fats ? I don’t.
I have shown this bottle to many people at my GET TOGETHER ON VEGGIE

Some of the veggie I am running the Mercedes with do separate even if the temperature at daytime is 28 degree Celsius ( today )
Dark, but clear oil on top, a larger bluish section and the lowest white, creamy looking stuff.. I tried to do some pictures but the trunk was to dark or my camera to bad.
I can see the layers because the heated filter has a clear bowl.
Ones it is separated it needs at least 50 degree to melt again.
Even so it has no effect on performance. I never do back flush my filter.
Soon as the heater is on the layers disappear.

I am aware that people especially from the US have reported different experience with their Diesel and have seen “white” staff dropping out of their Diesel.
I have not.

BMW Fan

http://www.crawldog.com/klausold/
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Postby 240Volvo » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:43 pm

I think that there is a problem with some of the terms that are used with regard to petroleum products, and the terms that are then used in dealing with VO and its variants. I know that diesel fuel is sometimes referred to as a "paraffin" and gasoline as an "aromatic." In common usage, both of these words have other meanings, and the petroleum industry's intent in employing these terms is not something that is readily discerned by the layman. When we refer to "wax" and diesel, I am not sure that it is the stuff we use to make candles with, but more something that makes us think in those terms. When a petroleum engineer employs those words, I think that it has a different meaning. If my father was still around, I could ask him. If he were still around, he would probably be logged in here!

I remember that one of the viscosity charts that Sunwizard posted used these terms, and I would love to have a better understanding of the technical meaning of the terminology. I suspect it would help in our understanding of issues like some that have come up in this thread to have a more precise set of definitions, and it might help to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings.

I makes me crazy when people confuse di- and tri-glycerides with glycerine. Having clear definitions can help. Can someone with experience weigh in?
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Postby Mac99 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:45 am

Doesn't help either when paraffin can mean wax to one person and kerosene to another. :wink:
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Postby Radrick » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:04 pm

Wow I was away for a couple of days working on my landscape and my thread blew up. :D I will list some replies below without quotes to try to keep this short.

Well I only received two replys that actually gave purge times and both of them are way to long for me.

I, like Sun already understand the extremely low comparative output of electric heat and it's cost in hp.

Yes I have my PMD relocated outside the engine compartment.

At this time I am planning on running with a FPHE on the wvo only thru the summer(if I ever get this thing done) and adding an additional one for my diesel come oct. I will have my hydoforce valve about 4" from my IP on the return side and the T on the supply side will be about 2" from the IP. Does anyone have an edjecated guess on how long my purge times will be. Three miles is way to long its only 18 miles to work and in the winter it takes five miles to warm the thing up.

If you t your return ahead of the filter to back flush it wouldn't it be ahead of the LP also? If so then you are esencially dead heading your LP aren't you? My wvo return will be t'd in on the suction side of my wvo LP.

PS pardon me on my bad spelling my spell checker is not working.
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby Performance Plus WVO » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:34 pm

My purge time during summer is short maybe 30 seconds at 30 miles per hour during winter I bump that to about one minute. Thats using a stock lift pump to push the diesel. That would be approximately what you are looking at plus or minus some.
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Postby Radrick » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:59 am

Performance Plus WVO wrote:My purge time during summer is short maybe 30 seconds at 30 miles per hour during winter I bump that to about one minute. Thats using a stock lift pump to push the diesel. That would be approximately what you are looking at plus or minus some.


That sounds good!! What type of vehicle are you running?
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby jburke » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:26 pm

"Three miles is way to long its only 18 miles to work and in the winter it takes five miles to warm the thing up. "

Thats your real problem, not purge times.
Pre-heat the engine with a 2000W AC powered coolant heater.
aka 'tank' heater from J.C. Whitney and other places.
That way the engine will be at 100*F before starting.
Perhaps only 2 miles to warm up enough to switch.
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Postby Performance Plus WVO » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:40 pm

"What type of vehicle are you running" I am running a turbo IDI 7.3 Ford. I am interested in finding out more about the 2 kw tank heater.
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Postby Radrick » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:08 pm

jburke wrote:"Three miles is way to long its only 18 miles to work and in the winter it takes five miles to warm the thing up. "

Thats your real problem, not purge times.
Pre-heat the engine with a 2000W AC powered coolant heater.
aka 'tank' heater from J.C. Whitney and other places.
That way the engine will be at 100*F before starting.
Perhaps only 2 miles to warm up enough to switch.


I keep my truck in my heated garage and I have the block heater kick in about 2 hours before I take off. I am warmed up to 160 before I get to the main drag four blocks from the house. It's the return trip that I am more concerned about. No plug in and no garage. If it takes 3 or 4 miles to warm up the truck and 3 miles to switch to wvo then 3 miles to purge I am only getting 7 miles of running on free fuel. That is less then half my trip miles.
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby VegMeister » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:58 pm

Maybe we need to make another thread for this but I'm pretty sure that d2 is not a paraffin, at least the stuff that comes from the sandbox isn't. That's all aromatic. What I do know about this is that most oils are made from aromatics. Cenpeco is one oil company that claims that they make their drain oil from paraffin based oil. However it's still oil.

If your drain oil (unless you're using cenpeco) is not a paraffin, then I think that it's unfair to say that all diesel is a paraffin. oil does not equal paraffin. And gas does not equal aromatic, because if you refined cenpeco oil enough you could make gasoline with it.

Maybe someone with more experience in the paraffin industry (I understand it is only found in Pennsylvania) can clear this up. I've worked in the oil industry in Alberta and I know for a fact there are no paraffins up there! However, almost all of the diesel in Canada comes from the tarsands.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
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