Acetone as WVO blend additive

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Acetone as WVO blend additive

Postby SunWizard » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:02 pm

I keep hearing about acetone as a WVO blend additive, and have searched everywhere for some science about it, no sites I found are very scientific. I wouldn't believe any of those claims without some science. Please post it here if you know of some science, but not guys who say "I tried it and got 14% better mileage" like all the other mileage scams.

Here is a very detailed analysis of acetone done by an automotive engineer who specializes in research of this type:
http://www.fuelsaving.info/acetone.htm In fact he shreds the pseudo-science that the guy who started the acetone fad used claiming reducing the surface tension increases mileage (which was orginally for gasoline engines only, then diesel users started too without any added science.)

Acetone attacks paint, plastics and rubbers (even viton!) more agressively than most solvents so you may be causing unknown damage. Another warning is that its vapors cause brain and nerve damage, here is the EPA safety data:
http://www.epa.gov/IRIS/subst/0128.htm
Last edited by SunWizard on Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby leftcoastjeff » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Some of the claims sound awefully familiar. (too good to be true?)

Water management?

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Postby David » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:53 am

A friend of mine that is a bio maker and svo'er and also a person that very accurately tests and documents every thing he does, tested acetone in his fuel for 6 months.
He could find no difference in fuel economy, ease of starting, engine smoothness , his attractiveness to women or any other definable result.
He recently re-tested on another vehicle for a month and could find no difference with it either.

If he dosen't believe it works, frankly, neither do I.

I too would be interested in some scientific evidence because I have come to see that some people are so desperate to believe in miracles, they will throw all semblance of common sense, logic and the rules of physics right out the window when trying to convince people or whatever cause they believe in.

To find some scientific evidence would be all that would be needed to make a believer out of me too.
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Postby zoochy » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:18 am

David wrote:I too would be interested in some scientific evidence because I have come to see that some people are so desperate to believe in miracles, they will throw all semblance of common sense, logic and the rules of physics right out the window when trying to convince people or whatever cause they believe in.


RE: rules of physics... If acetone is such a strong solvent how can it have no effect?
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>160,000 km on:
88% canola WVO
11% old gasoline
.6% turpentine
.3% acetone
.1% eye of newt
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Postby John Galt » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:40 am

If one does a little research on acetone, one will see that it's often used as as reaction additive to improve the solubility of organic fluid mixes. In that respect I believe it benefits blended VO fuels. It also has the cleaning properties of diesel fuel system additives.

I doubt if it improves MPG except in those cases where incomplete fuel atomization is happening due to dirty or worn carb jets or injectors, in which case it's a band-aid, like thicker oil in a tranny to make it sound quieter.
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Re: Acetone as a additive

Postby mixelpix » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:47 am

Hi SunWizard,

I just tested the solubility of acetone and VO (canola and soy) and would conclude that acetone does not form a miscible solution with commonly available vegetable oils. The acetone in my samples evaporated into the atmosphere quickly and would likely do as well in a vented diesel tank.

Having said that, the stuff sure is flammable!!!!! Am warming myself by the woodstove with the "byproducts" of my experiments. A constituent blend of:

50% manzanita and madrone (which I personally felled on my land)
11% woodchips
11% free cardboard from the local Ace hardware whee I bought the acetone (had to remove the tapes and adhesives, so much for the inks...)
10% corn and canola oil (SVO)
03% acetone

I wouldn't recommend this blend for your passenger diesel :lol: 8) unless, of course you "modified" the solids into wood alcohols. "Wood" cardboard biomass ferment into methanol? ...uh oh, here it comes: how much meth would a methhuffer huff if a methhuffer could huff methyl meth meth? My apologies to the woodchucks with chemistry degrees :oops:

Best,
-Patrick
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Postby John Galt » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:26 pm

I just tested the solubility of acetone and VO (canola and soy) and would conclude that acetone does not form a miscible solution with commonly available vegetable oils.

My extremely limited experience with Canadian acetone in small percents mixed with Canadian canola VO shows complete mixing and no signs of separation.

It's a good thing that I don't store my acetone or VO anywhere close to my computer where they might see this American claim and perhaps be confused into not mixing.

A quick Google search will show a number of examples of VO solubility in acetone. They're probably all using Canadian acetone which explains their noting that VO and acetone are soluble.

one example:

http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/ci/1988/peanutlab.html
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:20 pm

Mixelpix, I've got 200 labeled vials with various mixes racked outside the shed, 12 of them with acetone. Over the past 2 years, they have shown no separation. Of that lot, I have 1 with 70% VO, 20% D2, 10% RUG and one with 70% VO, 20% D2, 5% RUG, 5% acetone. The one where 5% acetone replaces 5% RUG stays liquid -10C lower. All samples use the same batch of high PHO VO. Empirical testing shows acetone to be a very good solvent.
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Postby coachgeo » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:49 am

I'm just a hick.. and had to look up what "miscible solution" was that Mixlepix mentioned (do you mind using real people terms Mixlepix?)... but .... iffff acetone evaporates as fast as he says... could it be that the blends you folk have stored away or tested before are NOT seperating cause there is no acetone left due to evaporation??.... or not enough left to see any seperation cause its in microdrops cause so much did evaporate?

Not agreeing or disagreeing... just conversing/discussing thats all.

course acetone is considred an amazing solvent sooo.....

interesting discussion though. Lets keep it a discussion and check baggage at the door.
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Postby bio_cowboy » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:55 pm

On the evaporation of solvents in a blend:
While, a small sample of acetone left in an open container will evaporate quite fast, say a day; however, solvents in a blend tend to be fairly stable and remain in solution for quite sometime, say weeks. Arguably, if one were to leave the lid off a sample, then after some months the lighter fractions are likely to evaporate off. Nonetheless, I believe we should assume that the sample jars mentioned above are most probably not vented, and so there is no place for the solvents to go, but stay in solutions.
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Postby mixelpix » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:19 pm

coachgeo wrote:I'm just a hick.. and had to look up what "miscible solution" was that Mixlepix mentioned (do you mind using real people terms Mixlepix?)... but .... iffff acetone evaporates as fast as he says... could it be that the blends you folk have stored away or tested before are NOT seperating cause there is no acetone left due to evaporation??.... or not enough left to see any seperation cause its in microdrops cause so much did evaporate?


sorta. look at the density of acetone (a non reactive, very flammable liquid). It is very similar to plant oils, therefore, the "mix" doesn't have much "separating to due" since the relative molecular densities of the two constituent liquids is so close, they will likely swirl together should you buy some vo and ace tone and pour them together. Note that like dropping water into a shot glss of whiskey, there is, i believe a "refracting" of light through the prism created between the "edges" of these two dissimilar yet mix-able liquids. Look further into the science and you will see that this characteristic of fluid dynamics is one of the preactical means by which we ae able to verify our hypothesis and have it rigorously peer reviewed before it becomes theory.

Best,
-pdk
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Patrick Day Kennedy

Postby bio_cowboy » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:36 pm

Hello moderators and forum members. Do we really need this kind of behavior on this forum?

(personal attack deleted.)

I believe that the forum moderators should be responsible for the behavior of their forum members, and when a forum member clearly filibusters the forum, or sends abusive private messages to forum members the forum moderator is responsible and should do everything he or she can to remove members who abuse the privilege of membership.
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Re: Patrick Day Kennedy

Postby SunWizard » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:47 pm

bio_cowboy wrote:Hello moderators and forum members. Do we really need this kind of behavior on this forum?

You are correct. Both have been warned and yet continue. bio_cowboy and mixelpix are both now banned.
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