Overcoming Palm Oil

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Overcoming Palm Oil

Postby Zulu » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:54 pm

Here in South Africa, the new trend is to use palm oil, and palm oil as most of you chaps know, goes hard. I could install a heated tank and heat the whole system, but that seems like a very hard and expensive way to go.

Could I blend it or do you guys blend the oil with say RUG or Kero or something, just to keep it long enough to use.

If it gels with diesel after only a week, that is OK, because by that time I would have driven the tank out..

What is the Forums take on this, or should I just experiment with some different % blend till I get one that stays liquid for say 10 days. The reason I ask is that I am sure someone here has already come up with a magic formula.

Most of our oil is Sunflower oil, and it works just beautifully, let it settle for a week and then use it, but this palm stuff... GRRRRRR, you have to take it otherwise the places do not give you the sunflower.... We pay for sunflower but the Palm is FREE.....
Living in Africa, Driving on the goodness of the Sun and the rain, and loving every Km of it!!

72000 Km on the greasy stuff already... Oh Africa.. such a nice place to live!!!
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:35 am

Blends don't thicken due to time. It depends on temperature and the type of VO. If its liquid after 5 minutes, its liquid after 1 year at the same temp. So test your blend at the coldest temp you get to avoid filter plugging.

Blending with 20% RUG or kero will only lower the cold filter plugging point by 4C (7F) so it might not be enough for you.
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Experimental blending

Postby mixer » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:01 am

Hello Zuku, I have read of enquiries into blending palm oil, because it tends to solidify at about 70-80°F (25c), like animal fat, but it is the dominant plant oil in the tropics. I even had a 5 gallon cube of it given to me, and had planned on experimenting with it, but I had to leave it behind before I got around to experimenting with it.

The basic home-brew method of experimental blending is to recycle a bunch of 1 qt (1L) wide mouthed bottles (Mason jars) and use them for your experiments. The nice thing about canning jars is they come graduated.

I generally start with 5% of some cheap and accessible solvent, such as unleaded gasoline (RUG, Petrol) and increase the concentration in successive jars at 5% increments up to 50%, which will make 10 jars. Then, top off each jar with whatever oil one is experimenting with. In your case it is Palm Oil. Then let it sit around in the jars in a cool shady place for about a week or more to see what settles out, and how it responds to temperature. And, one might wish to observe the jars over the temperature range of a year, or just put them in the refrigerator or freezer to see what the solution does at cold temperatures.

If gasoline doesn't work, then no petroleum distillate is likely to work. And, if you use D-2 diesel you will have to use about twice as much as with gasoline. Kero, will be about half again as much solvent needed as with RUG. And, D-2 will not help you when the temperatures drop to freezing (32F/0C). Kero fails at about -40c/f and requires high concentrations, such as 80% to get that low. RUG freezes at -90.7°C (-131.26 °F), so with some oils it might reduce the wax point down to near its freezing point.

If no petroleum distillate works, then try some dry alcohols, such as methanol or ethanol. If that does nothing for you, then try turpentine or acetone. Turpentine and acetone are particularly good at dissolving animal fat, so they may work very well with Palm Oil.

You will find that once you have found a solvent that works, the solution will not precipitate out over time, but over temperature it may. RUG, alcohols and acetone will most probably not produce waxing above -60 c (-76f), whereas with Kerosene and turpentine, one can expect to see waxing at about -40c/f.

Once you have found a solvent that will thin Palm Oil, you may find that you can get away with using just enough to loosen the Palm Oil, then thin it further with a cheap solvent, like RUG.

Sources:
visgage pocket oil comparator from ebay for $20:
http://www.visgage.com/page_2.htm

Melting points of various liquids.
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/prote ... sc1561.htm
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby Zulu » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:38 am

What I have found is that mixing good quality WVO with the heated Palm oil, stops it congealing, but it is a bit of a job.

By saying good quality oil, I mean the oil that comes from a fast food outlet that only makes chips/fries in the oil. After letting it stand for a week or so, the oil looks like it is brand new...

One thing that I would like to know is, how do you guys deal with the crud at the bottom, because if you stop pouring a cubie, and leave the last litre or two at the bottom, iand pour it into a separate conatiner, you can throw the top "good" oil off and so on, but there is a bit of wastage.

Any ideas in this regard...
Living in Africa, Driving on the goodness of the Sun and the rain, and loving every Km of it!!

72000 Km on the greasy stuff already... Oh Africa.. such a nice place to live!!!
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What do you do with the sludge from settlement

Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:58 am

Hi Zulu, your strategy of mixing "good" oil with your Palm Oil to reduce the palm oil melting point sounds like a good idea. It would be great to find out what that "good" oil is. If you were in the USA, we could bet it was canola oil, but since you are in S. Africa, maybe it is sunflower oil. In any case, once the two oils have mixed, you might find it useful to add kerosene or gasoline to improve cold starting, drop the melting point, and improve the burn. But, if your strategy works for you, then why fix what isn't broken?

Your other strategy of letting your recycled oils settle for a while is also a good one. Most of us WVO consumers do that. And, like you, I have found I can pour off the top the good light oil and concentrate the thick gunk at the bottom, and let it settle for a few weeks in the sun and find more light oil rising to the top.

But, after a few cycles of concentration I find no more light-oil rises to the top. Then I am left with a 55-gallon barrel of sludge. At that point one could take it back to the tallow bin and after extracting the light oil from off the top of the tallow bin, one could put the sludge back into the tallow bin. Another strategy with the sludge is to convert it to bio-diesel.
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Re: What do you do with the sludge from settlement

Postby coachgeo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:08 am

mixer wrote:... If you were in the USA, we could bet it was canola oil,...
You might be right..... I thought most of it was Soy oil though? Even more so now that the price of corn has shot up.
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Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:44 pm

Hello coachgeo, I did not know that the price of corn oil has gone up, but, we can assume, if it has, that it has increased because of corn fermentation for fuel. Which should not be, unless, the corn being fermented is not having its oil extracted. Now, if that is the case, someone has to clue these corn fermentors for fuel into the fact that oil does not aid in fermentation. In fact it retards it. So, they should be extracting oil from all of the corn before fermentation, then the price of corn oil should go down, because it would be a secondary product to ethanol production. Please see the essay below for more details:

Biofuels For Peace
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/righ ... rpeace.htm

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
the Great Western Vehicle biofuels project
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/righ ... /index.htm
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:54 pm

Mixing of Vegetable oils does not lower the cloud point of Palm oil.

Palm oil or any other oil will always have the same cloud point
Mix Palm oil with say canola put it in the Fridge and you get two layers.

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Postby mixer » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:57 pm

BMW Fan wrote:Mixing of Vegetable oils does not lower the cloud point of Palm oil. Palm oil or any other oil will always have the same cloud point
Mix Palm oil with say canola put it in the Fridge and you get two layers.

BMW Fan
Hello BMW Fan, while you believe that it is not possible to lower the cloud point of an oil, that is precisely what we mixers and blenders do on a regularly basis. I have not experimented with dissolving palm oil with any solvents; however, it seems to be reasonable to me that a vegetable oil could lower palm oil's cloud point.

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby BMW Fan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:06 am

Jhanananda,

you are not getting what I said.

I repeat :
you can not lower the cloud point of Palm oil by mixing a second or third vegetable oil.
Cloud points do not change.

I am aware that other ingredients can.

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Postby mixer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:02 am

Hello BMW Fan, and thank-you for posting your opinion. Now, you seem quite sure that a vegetable oil cannot reduce the cloud point of palm oil. So, have you done the experiment? If so, how many vegetable oils did you try? Which ones did you try? Because I am sure a plant oil, or a distillate there of, such as turpentine or orange oil, will most probably dissolve palm oil and lower its cloud point.

Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby BMW Fan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:23 am

mixer wrote: Because I am sure a plant oil, or a distillate there of, such as turpentine or orange oil, will most probably dissolve palm oil and lower its cloud point.


Hello Jhanananda,

Again, I said :

I am aware that other ingredients can

...such as turpentine. Why do you add most probably ?

Plain mix of different veggie oils do not lower the cloud point of PALM oil.

BMW Fan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Turpentine (disambiguation).
Turpentine
IUPAC name not applicable
Identifiers
CAS number [8006-64-2]
SMILES

[show]
Properties
Molecular formula C10H16 (approximate)
Molar mass 136 g/mol (approximate)
Density 0.85-0.87 g/cm³ (approximate)
Melting point

< −50 °C (approximate)
Boiling point

150-170 °C
Hazards
Flash point 35 °C
Except where noted otherwise, data are given for
materials in their standard state
(at 25 °C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references

Turpentine (also called spirit of turpentine, oil of turpentine, wood turpentine, gum turpentine) is a fluid obtained by the distillation of resin obtained from trees, mainly pine trees. It is composed of terpenes, mainly the monoterpenes alpha-pinene and beta-pinene. It is sometimes known colloquially as turps, but this more often refers to turpentine substitute (or mineral turpentine).
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Postby mixer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:44 am

BMW Fan wrote:Why do you add most probably ?
Thank-you BMW Fan, for posting your response. I use the passive form of English, such as the term "probably," when I have not used the solvent in question, but I have read about its use and believe that it will most probably perform as I stated, but I do not in fact know, because I have not done so. When I know something to be true, then I state it as so.

Now, your use of the English language states as fact that veggie oils do not lower the cloud point of PALM oil; however, I asked you if you had done the experiment, and if so which oils you used, and you did not respond. We can only conclude that you have not done the experiment in question, and that you are stating conjecture as fact.
BMW Fan wrote:Plain mix of different veggie oils do not lower the cloud point of PALM oil.
I agree with John Galt
John Galt wrote:If any fuel mix is handled with the normal safety precautions of it's most volatile component, then there should be no problems.
Best regards,

Jeffrey S, Brooks
Advocating blending 5-30% gasoline with WVO in the tank from the pump is far less dangerous than blending a few ounces of two-stroke oil into a can of gasoline for a lawnmower.
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Postby Zulu » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:01 am

Just some feed back. Before anyone asks, the answer is yes, it did freak my wife out. I always ask her if she ever regretted getting married to me and she said, "It is at times like these....."

I get the palm in 20l plastic buckets. Then it obviously goes hard, like ice cream in the plastic tubs. So.... get a pot, any pot, preferably a 4-5L one and put it on the stove and put the stove on... then cut the top off the plastic container and scoop the oil out with a nice big "dishing up" spoon(Preferably one from your Mother in Law) till the pot is full. Then wait 5-6 minutes and all the oil is nice and warm and all the lumps have disolved. I then pour is through my pre filter and then into my drum. Then just pump it out into another 20l bucket till there is 15 litres in the bucket. Then add 5 litres of diesel and give it a little shake and then into the tank.

I have found that the car runs much better on this mix. I do not mind the cost of the diesel because I am basically getting the palm for free, nobody wants it. The Bio Diesel guys try and steer well clear of it, they say it is to much hassle to turn it into BD.

Once I have made say 60 liters, I put another 5 litres of diesel through my pump and filter and put this in a 20l container, ready for the next lot. I also just to flush it well, put 20 litres of "normal" Sunflower oil through and this has seemed to work well to flush it out. Suppose when I am in the heart of Summer, I could drop the percentage of diesel to 10% and not 25 as I am using now.
Living in Africa, Driving on the goodness of the Sun and the rain, and loving every Km of it!!

72000 Km on the greasy stuff already... Oh Africa.. such a nice place to live!!!
Zulu
 
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Postby coachgeo » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:34 am

to keep that MB as long as you would like I would suggest you strongly consider some added heat to your system. At least a flat plate heat exchanger to thin out your blends could add yearssss to the life of your engine..... IMHO.
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