Dewatering systems

Collecting, filtering and dewatering of WVO SVO vegetable oil. For Biodiesel producers too.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby Burbarian » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:03 am

SunWizard wrote:I haven't done controlled measurements of it, but I think VO doesn't conduct heat downward very well. The warmth just sits in a layer on top.


I suppose with a steady high heat source available, one could use light bottom insulation and an initial bottom mounted coil to preheat the entire batch to liquid first, then switch to the top coil to maintain thermal stratification. With irregular heat sources, that could indeed be a problem.

Hmm.. Thermal conductivity and heat flow properties of vegetable oil and animal fats in vertical enforced thermal stratification. Looks like another experiment is in order.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:43 pm

I'm curiuos how these 'air drying' methods have failed to produce accelerated polymerization. Based on what I learned from a chemist w/25yrs of VO experience, I will no longer use evaporate dewatering and will not even experiment with 'bubbling' or spraying. He is convinced that even CF's add significant amounts of oxygen to the VO. (He has one and is still experimenting.)

They make VO polymerize on purpose by bubbling air thru it. It is a FACT that oxygen accelerates polymerization. So does heat. These 2 things reduce the 3rd ingredient, time, exponentially. A 4rth major player is the presence of oxidents (such as copper and mild steel). I wish I had the chemistry knowlege to explain 'oxidative polymerization' better, but it is all I can do to understand it as it is explained to me.

SO, how is it that some people are doing these things that should cause'em to make fruit roll-ups or chicken-skin - but they aren't having any problems?
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:26 pm

I think if you remove any polymerization that already exists (or poly you might add by bubbling or spraying) by filtering or centrifuge afterwards, and then don't leave the fuel in your vehicle tank for more than a few weeks, the poly doesn't have a chance to grow enough in that time to plug a filter. Except in cases where people have highly heated tanks which accelerate it. Or too large of tanks so it stays in there too long.

If you store VO in closed containers with little air, there is little chance for poly to progress there even if it had started to poly before storage.

See: polymerization thread here
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby David » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:28 pm

I agree with Sun above. If there is no air and no water in the oil, how is it going to polermirise any further?
I believe polymerization is like fire, it needs 3 ingredients to happen. In this case it needs water, oxygen and heat. Take away one or more and it


IF A PERSON AVOIDED ALL THE THINGS THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO DAMAGE THEIR ENGINES, NOT WORK, OR CAUSE ENDLESS TROUBLE, NO ONE IN THE WORLD COULD DO THE VERY THING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DO SUCCESSFULLY AND HAPPILY EVERY DAM DAY.

Hmm, think I just wrote my new signature!
Last edited by David on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:47 am

A hot climate like Oz has fewer problems with VO fuel, especially for simple engines like MBenz and Toyota. These engines in a warm climate can be quite tolerant of dissolved moisture in VO fuel. Success in a hot OZ climate might yield similar results in CA, AZ, TX and FL. However, someone who applies those examples to modern N.American diesel vehicles in northern US and Canada, could experience all the problems that someone in Oz might dismiss as unbelievable in their experience.
Last edited by John Galt on Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby David » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:28 am

John Galt wrote:A climate that ranges from 44°F / 7°C to 80°F / 26°C is much less VO problematic, especially for simple engines like MBenz and Toyota.


If that were the actual climate range, perhaps it would be less problematic. I don't know where you got your figures from, but they are out more than 10o C either way! :lol:
I would like to know where the place is that has that climate though, sounds great !!

These days, I don't give anything much weight unless a reasonable number of people suspect something has happened to them, not that something might. :D
Last edited by David on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:34 am

Oz has a very forgiving climate for using VO. Success in Oz does not necessarily translate to parts of the world where it gets cold.
Last edited by John Galt on Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby David » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:10 am

I had come to believe from what I read, that polymerization was increased in the presence of heat rather than cold. In a colder climate I would expect this would occour much less for the same reasons you put things in the fridge.

I'm still in the dark about what differences the climate and engine type would make in relation to evaporatively drying WVO and its effect on polymerization.
At the moment I can't see why it would be any different in oz to anywhere else in the world or why seemingly good oil would be no good in one engine but fine in another, but I'm keen to find out!
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Postby David » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:19 am

Don't know where the min and Max History is but this is the closest location to where I am. :D

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/94765.html

Is this the History overall?
http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstat ... hspan=year

Last years temp range:
108.7 °F / 42.6 °C 0.0 °F / -17.8 °C
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Postby John Galt » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:16 am

This discussion is about dewatering.
The warm Oz climate is rather forgiving for running VO in diesel engines. One can tolerate more moisture in the oil in a hot climate, in a primitive IDI engine, without apparent problems, as compared with a modern engine in a cold climate.
There already is another discussion about polymerization if that is your interest.
polymerization thread here
Last edited by John Galt on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:19 pm

John, I agree this thread is about dewatering. BUT, I think if dewatering a certain way increases polymerization, it is relavent here.

We all know the water goes down the toilet the wrong way down there! Why wouldn't poly... happen differently too!! :lol: :wink:

Seriously, I am delighted to hear David has not had trouble with his design. Like I said earlier, it goes against the hard science - no 'parrot talk' or fear mongering here.

The fact is ALL VO is deteriorating starting from the time it is squeezed from its source. This molecular-level degradation is called oxidative polymerization. Per John's request :wink: , I will save my other thoughts on poly... for that thread.
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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Postby David » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:32 pm

I'm not sure what you are talking about John. I mentioned it only as Sun and others did before me.

:roll:
Last edited by David on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Self Moderation

Postby coachgeo » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:12 pm

Some of you have good comments on dewatering and how it relates to poly and we certainly want to hear them!!!! but at the same time lets not take other folks threads off in tangents. One or two post on a tangent thought is fine but if it gets to where it's taking on a life of its own.. its time for a new thread.

So don't get me wrong WE want to hear and read the tangent stuff folk have to offer..... just do it in an appropriate thread thats all. Feel free to mention the tangent info in the initial thread and provide a link to a thread discussing it specifically !!! This way those reading along in a thread can keep their frame of mind/discussion on the topic ANDDDDDD those who want to focus on the tangent can do that as well.

That's a win win organized solution and it shows respect to the orginator of the initial thread.

So in this case since it appears folk want to discuss Poly thoughts as they pertain to dewatering, lets now begin to do it in an appropriate existing thread on poly; or make a new one on that topic. David can I ask you to do that please. Thanx in advance.




Thank you.
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Postby Welder » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:19 am

John Galt wrote:This discussion is about dewatering.
The warm Oz climate is rather forgiving for running VO in diesel engines. One can tolerate more moisture in the oil in a hot climate, in a primitive IDI engine, without apparent problems, as compared with a modern engine in a cold climate.
There already is another discussion about polymerization if that is your interest.
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0




What does a warm climate and IDI injection have to do with IP cavitation caused by having too much water in WVO?

IDI only refers to the injectors, not the IP. Someone running a GMC with a Stanadyne DB2 rotary IP has the same IP as my Ford F-250, but I have IDI injectors, while they have DI injectors. LONG LIVE THE IDI!!!

I think you are confusing the IDIs ability to get good spray patterns in the combustion chamber with cooler veggie than a DI can get.

Dewatering isn't about climate or injectors, it's about injection pump cavitation.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:50 am

What does a warm climate and IDI injection have to do with IP cavitation caused by having too much water in WVO?


Not much as far as I know. I have no idea why that individual tried to turn this discussion on dewatering into something else
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