DI versus IDI engines

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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DI versus IDI engines

Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:09 am

IDI (indirect direct injection) engines are generally considered better for single tank and blending than DI (direct injection) engines. Because IDI injects the fuel into a small prechamber instead of directly on the piston top. (Although within each type there are notable differences, see below.) This is because of the problem when unburned VO gets on the cylinder walls during cold starts, (signaled by smoking) and gets scraped off by the piston rings. Some can get past the rings since they don't seal well at startup, especially on old worn out engines. And this can put coke (hard black deposits) on the rings, scoring the cylinder wall and leading to mass destruction of the engine. Even if it never gets to that point, VO getting past the rings can contaminate your motor oil, making it thicker due to polymerization, and shortening the engine life due to increased wear. One reason why many VO users get regular tests of their oil at each change using a place like http://www.blackstone-labs.com/standard_analysis.html

IDI engines:
Mercedes <1999
Ford pre-1994 (pre-powerstroke)
Chevy, GMC pre-2000 (pre-Duramax)
Isuzu pre-1989?
Mitsubishi pre-1989?
VW pre-1994 (non TDI)

One trick that mercedes did on 75-85 models (maybe more?) was there is a little red hot finger of metal in the pre-chamber that acts like a glow plug to vaporize the fuel better anytime the engine is running. This is one reason they are considered one of the most forgiving for blending.

DI engines:
Dodge Cummins (all)
Ford 1994 up (powerstroke)
Chevy/GMC 1999 up (Duramax)
VW TDI 1994 up (TDI)

One trick that Dodge Cummins DI engines have is a deep dish in the top of the piston where the fuel is sprayed, preventing it from getting on the cylinder walls as much. I don't know which others do this but its a good design.

DI engines in general get better mileage since its a more efficient design and burn cleaner, this is why most modern engines switched to DI.
Last edited by SunWizard on Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zoochy » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:24 pm

Toyoto Indirect Injection diesel engines include:

B
2B
3B
4B
5B
2C
H
2H
L
2L & 2LT
3L
1KZ-TE
Last edited by zoochy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:55 pm

Too bad toyota and mitsubishi only imported diesels into the US for a few years in early 80's, since I hear they were decent IDI engines.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:12 pm

The Toyota 4cyl B engine and the 6cyl H engine are IDI engines very similar to MBenz engines, they also made turbo DI versions of both engines with the same rugged reliability. The L series engines are very similar to the VW TDI and perform equally well.

Toyota engines run very well on VO and VO blends.
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Postby froggo » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:11 am

Hi everyone,

I've had my HJ45 Toyota for a long time running diesel and found it to be a very reliable vehicle. I've never thought about trading it on a newer model as it still works fine and has never let me down.

Now my idi 6cyl H motor is running wvo and seems to love the stuff. There is better power through the rev range which was pleasing as they are a slow vehicle, more for off-road than on highways.

There are heaps of toyota in Australia and are still the 4x4 of choice for most off-road work and most models have a good reputation.

It's a shame that so many of the Toyotas in America and Australia have the diesels removed and a 350 chev dropped in 8). Ah to be young again.

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Postby canolafunola » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:12 pm

"One trick that Dodge Cummins DI engines have is a deep dish in the top of the piston where the fuel is sprayed, preventing it from getting on the cylinder walls as much. I don't know which others do this but its a good design. "

I have read somewhere that some VW diesels have deep dish pistons. Anyone know which engines?
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Postby David » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:06 pm

froggo wrote:
It's a shame that so many of the Toyotas in America and Australia have the diesels removed and a 350 chev dropped in 8).


Shame???

I couldn't think of anything I'd like more than a V8 Diesel under the bonnet!
I saw a ford " pickup" the other day in the city that had an obviously worked V8 Diesel in it and despite the weight and size of the thing, it laid rubber apparently at will despite being an auto and went like a scalded cat.

I rather be taking that up the hills of the highway at 110 than being a road block in my merc flogging it to maintain 90 as semis overtake me! :oops:
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Postby WyoSam » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:15 pm

Isn't the fuel rail in the Ford Powerstroke closer in functionality in heating the fuel prior to injection closer to an IDI than the problem you would have with a DI? Seems Greasecar or someone was promoting them as a single tank system.

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Postby SunWizard » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:11 pm

The rail provides some extra heat, but you still should have a FPHE. Its still a DI engine. The rail doesn't provide much heat to the first cylinders on the rail, mostly on the last 2.

Because someone promotes a system doesn't mean it will not shorten engine life. There are some who are experimenting with single tanking Powerstrokes and probably every other engine available and maybe shortening their engine life to find out. Hopefully they will report back with their results after years.
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Postby hheynow » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:24 pm

David wrote:
I couldn't think of anything I'd like more than a V8 Diesel under the bonnet!
I saw a ford " pickup" the other day in the city that had an obviously worked V8 Diesel in it and despite the weight and size of the thing, it laid rubber apparently at will despite being an auto and went like a scalded cat.


Yup...like a scalded cat! :mrgreen: My county is filled with them with mostly Powerstrokes and Cummins. Not too many DuraMax's though.
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Postby coachgeo » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:51 pm

If I'm not mistakent the ford DI has a pretty damn deep piston cup too.

by the way..... that idea... may well be from Elsbett. His Mulit fuel engine was a DI design with a deep piston cup. Basically the thought was move to the pre chamber from in the head (swirl chamber/atomize the fuel better chamber) into a cup in the piston top.

Story I read was he tried to sell it to everyone on that side of the pond but all turned it down.... but rather quickly began selling vehicles with engines full of designs like his. Particularly VW. Maybe they had that design in the works in advance orrrrrrr??????

When you get a chance look up his patent on Multi fuel diesels. Amazing design.
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Postby 240Volvo » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:20 pm

The Volvo D24 engine is a VW/Audi 4 piston design (70s-80s) that was a 6 cylinder version of the VW/Audi 4. I believe that the 6 cylinder was also used for some industrial purposes. I also believe that is also has a cupped piston head, though I have not seen it with my own eyes. I understand that cupping was an Elsbett-inspired development.

Elsbett had developed a tdi system, but VW only began to use a tdi system after the rights had expired on Elsbett's design. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but that is what I recall.

Don't the Mercedes pistons have a W-shaped top? That would be another reason why they work so well with VO.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:41 pm

If you are referring to the popular 75-85 Mercedes IDI, they were nearly flat top pistons. Just a little dip where the prechamber sticks out. Some of them have a shallow star shaped dish on the piston tops that looks cool, and requires a slightly different pre-chamber. But a deep cup is not a useful feature on an IDI.
Last edited by SunWizard on Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:48 pm

coachgeo wrote:If I'm not mistakent the ford DI has a pretty damn deep piston cup too.


Yep, here is one:
Ford Powerstroke piston on ebay

Here is a 99 Dodge Cummins piston to compare:
Image

And an article with cool cutaway views of a Cummins and Ford engine:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/27/big-diesels-dodges-cummins-and-fords-powerstroke/
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:10 pm

IDI and Powerstrokes :D
The PowerStroke was introduced in Aug. of 94. I believe with the introduction of the 95 yr. but there may be a few 94s with Powerstrokes. there is a much higher chance of the 94 being a turboed IDI.
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