TIH setup

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby John Galt » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:36 pm

why not instead use a second FPHE mounted in the rear by the tank?

Insulated HOH should get the oil warm enough to melt any PHO or fats.
Last edited by John Galt on Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:47 am

John Galt wrote:
why not instead use a second FPHE mounted in the rear by the tank?

Why bother, insulated HOH will get the oil warm enough to melt any PHO or fats. What part of this is so difficult to grasp, or is this just argument for argument's sake?


I'm no expert on cold climates.....thus my questions. If I dont go bankrupt and have to sell everything I own I hope to someday make my Unimog good enough to handle adventures in froooozen weather so I can venture north or south. Thus my questions.

I know your knowledgable and you've made your points pretty flatly. Does not sound like you got any more to say since you were blunt. Thanks for the input.

So now Im just curious if Sun has any additional input thats all.

More info in.... the more to get confused about :shock: :lol: just kidding.... the more info in to my meager little brain the more I got to base good sound decisions on when things come around.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:06 am

John Galt wrote:Why bother, insulated HOH will get the oil warm enough to melt any PHO or fats. What part of this is so difficult to grasp, or is this just argument for argument's sake?

Not true with my climate and VO. HoH will heat it enough to flow, but not enough to avoid clogging my filter.

A 2nd FPHE costs far more ~$75 compared to the $5 more that my TiH cost compared to HoH. And its harder to mount, install and insulate another FPHE. Since I am experienced enough to know not to kink my TiH during installation, that eliminates its only drawback.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:27 pm

Not true with my climate and VO.

our climate is much colder, and insulated HOH works just fine in a correctly designed system.

HoH will heat it enough to flow,


that's all it needs to do

but not enough to avoid clogging my filter.


If it's correctly plumbed with the FPHE before the filter then it's not a problem
Last edited by John Galt on Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:09 pm

John Galt wrote:If it's correctly plumbed with the FPHE before the filter then it's not a problem

I can see how some system designs might need a HIH band-aid.
Better designs don't.

Thats an example of the tradeoffs I mentioned, and I don't think thats better. If you put your filter after the FPHE, then you run on cold VO for the first 5-10 miles after switchover (the contents of the filter doesn't get warmed enough by a filter wrap). Thats a critical time so thats a worse design.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:28 pm

SunWizard wrote:the contents of the filter doesn't get warmed enough by a filter wrap

I can see how that might happen with a series coolant circuit. With parallel loops the filter is hot enough before switching.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:14 pm

John Galt wrote:
SunWizard wrote:the contents of the filter doesn't get warmed enough by a filter wrap

I can see how that might happen with a series coolant circuit. With parallel loops the filter is hot enough before switching.

Not true, I use a parallel loop, and from my actual testing in this thread HiH/TiH vs HoH a filter wrap doesn't warm the contents much even at 80F summer temps with all flow going to the VO side and none to the heater core:

I have done tests of the temps of my wrapped filter. It is wrapped with 3/8" ID hose, Dana style, tightly installed full height, 7" tall, 3.5" dia. Cim-tek filter. 80F ambient, 60F VO in filter at start. I have confirmed my IR thermometer is accurate by repeated tests: pulling back my pipe insulation and it matches my inline temp guage right after the FPHE.

At 4 miles my coolant hit 190F, when I normally switch over. Filter VO temp was 80F. The FPHE VO temp was 170F. I delayed my switch to VO as a test to see how hot the coolant wrap would get the VO. This was summer, in the winter, the first quart of VO coming out of that filter would be very cold.

At 20 miles the VO in my wrapped filter was 100F. Many of my trips are only 20 miles, so I would get no VO use if I waited that long. Switching at 4 miles I get at least 75% of the trip on VO. The coolant in the wrap hasn't been hot for long at switchover. Not long enough to transfer its full heat to a quart of VO in the filter, but plenty in a FPHE. I will keep my FPHE after the VO filter.

Also in that thread, Ron Schroeder, one of the most experienced VO users, agrees that "insulated HoH was marginal in the winter when the lines were exposed under the car. Now I run Aluminum tube in Hose"
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:07 pm

Insulate the coolant wrapped filter.
What's the temperature drop across the filter wrap coolant inlet/outlet, sounds like insufficient coolant flow.
Re Ron's comment, of course HOH isn't enough by itself, you have to use a FPHE.
The insulated HOH is hot enough to keep the oil fluid from our experience in sub zero temperatures, the FPHE does the rest.
No need for such a big filter. If the oil is correctly processed before it goes in the tank that sort of filter is unnecessary, a standard diesel fuel filter is quite adequate.
Last edited by John Galt on Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:55 pm

Theres huge coolant flow in the Cummins. The problem is that rubber has very poor heat transfer. This testing was in the summer, 80F temps so insulation would make little difference. Very few people have actually done testing like this of coolant wraps, I have seen no other reports, have you tested?

This size filter is the standard size for a large truck like mine. I don't know what you mean by "correctly processed", but I want to burn PHO since thats what most of my sources give me. PHO needs more heat but its easy to supply that heat with TiH so I can burn PHO down to -10F, the coldest it has gotten in 3 years.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:25 pm

This testing was in the summer, 80F temps so insulation would make little difference.... I can burn PHO down to -10F, the coldest it has gotten in 3 years.
Here it routinely gets to minus thirty and insulated HOH + FPHE works fine at those temperatures when the coolant circuit is correctly connected in parallel loops NOT series.
Insulation on the filter will make a big difference at cold ambient temperatures. I've never believed that hose filter wraps were effective, and you've proven that they don't work so well. I use a silicone pad plug-in preheater wrapped around the stock fuel filter which gets the whole filter up to operating temperature before start. I can see why you're having problems with a coolant filter wrap on a cold filter. I also use a block heater, and preheaters on the injector lines. All of these make for quicker temperature rise once the vehicle starts. The VO temp at the injector does not drop much before the FPHE starts the temperature rising within a couple of kilometers. A correctly connected FPHE should get he VO very close to coolant temperature where the heat loss from an insulated filter should be negligible.
Last edited by John Galt on Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:53 pm

John G just out of curiousity, how well do you think (or know) your set up to work W/out the plug in heaters?

Thought is... when you leave home... its plugged in; no problemo, But sitting in a parking lot while at work..... there is no plug in. Or after leaving it at the Aiport Parking while on a trip etc?

Not arguing... just curious the warm up time etc.

Sun.. what about yours in same senarios?
Last edited by coachgeo on Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:15 am

sitting in a parking lot while at work..... there is no plug in.

Not the case here. We know how to deal with cold in the North. All parking lots have plug-ins, SOP. Besides my truck takes a long time to cool down to ambient temperature. As for the airport parking scenario, I would NEVER leave my valuable Toyota diesel truck in an airport parking lot. I would either get a ride to the airport or take the old EFI gasser Corola, which will start without preheating at thirty below. It runs great but looks like a junker; nobody would steal it.

To answer the other question. Yes the diesel will start-up OK without plug- in preheating, but I know it's hard on the engine, so I don't if I can avoid it.
Last edited by John Galt on Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:49 am

ok thanks. Just wanted to know since on say a trip to alaska or even a simple trip into the mountains on a winter adventure I wont have any plug in's available. though I am thinking maybe a RV heater converted to either a coolant heater or a Fuel heater (or both?)
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Extreme cold operation

Postby John Galt » Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:19 am

I have started my diesel truck on blended fuel at minus thirty when I was at a cabin in the bush.
It started without problems, first crank.
All fluids and lubes are synthetic, which helps a lot in the extreme cold, and the dual batteries are marine type.
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Postby bmalachuk » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:17 am

Well from what I have read here my setup with the TIH might be overkill I guess. Or at the very least I should say the amount of heat I am adding might be overkill. Especially on a Powerstroke where the fuel hangs out in the heads.

DFA heated 80 gallon AL tank in the bed (which has their heater loop built in, I plan on having a ball valve to adjust flow for longer trips as to not super heat the oil in the tank), then into Davco 382 with coolant heat (davco says adds 25F to fuel), then 3/8 hose to Raptor pump (I planned on bundling hoses into HOH for that 2-3 feet), then TIH for 5-6 feet in pretty much a straight line, 90 degree 3/8 Vibra-loc fitting on belled 3/8 aluminum tube, heading straight up to an Arctic Fox Linehauler mounted vertically, hot WVO exiting the top fitting, then 3/8in hose to the valley between the heads, then splitting to the heads themselves with 1/4in hose.

Coolant was gonna go block to linehauler to TIH to davco and DFA tank, back to heater core. I was hoping to see at least 180F at the temp sensor I planned to have at the split in the valley.

The Arctic Fox Linehauler is/was sorta an afterthought. I bought it on ebay in the spring for like $70 and never did anythign with it. I figured since I had it I'd incorporate it into the system. Their spec says at .1gpm it adds +112F to fuel, and my PSD at cruise of 75mph is using about 4 to 6GPH or .06 to .1gpm.

I don't see any possibility of WVO ever being able to mix with coolant in my application. Less for some reason the 3/8 al tube were to rupture and 16psi (coolant system) was able to overpower 80psi (Raptor pump setting for PSD).
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