Valid Reliable test of engine performance on diff. WVO types

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby John Galt » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:25 pm

How could something like that GTech-ProSS work with a diesel? It's highly unlikely that the cigarette lighter socket on my non-computerized '89 diesel truck will give an RPM signal. It's not mentioned at the website, but are they only usable with OBD2 computerized vehicles?
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Postby coachgeo » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:27 pm

John Galt wrote:The snap discs I'm familiar with are a bimetallic on-off switch. Are you thinking of something else?
I honestly do not know the engineering behind them.

My assumption is they are like a glow plug in reverse.

Think electrolisis/fuel cell technology... add electric to water and you'll seperate H20 into H and O. so mathmatically

Electric +H20 produces H2 + O

soooooo then you must allso have

H2 + O produces Electricity (concept behind a fuel cell)

ok.... now to Glow plugs

Electricicty + metal GP = Heat

Soooo.... Heat + GP = Electricity. (measure this electircy of the GP and you know how hot it is -this method already been used by rare few WVOers to determine how hot it is inside the cyclender; thus extrapolating from that how good combustion is in there)

soooo... take that too a snap disk... my assumption is they work

Heat + SD= Electric

.....and its calibrated that at a certain established electrical value it throws a switch (on or off)

so if you get a snap disk with a calibrated value much higher than the exhaust manifold will reach....

Heat + SD= Electric......

Measure electric and compare this with some IR readings to figure what electrical value equals what temprature...... and now your SD is a temp measure device.

for all I know there is already in existence externaly mountable temp measure devices that are cost effective. Just thinking out loud.

lots of engines these days don't have GP's so using that as a temp measure device..... wont work.

I forget if I linked into this thread the threads about GP's as combustion temp measure devices.

to reitterate.... idea here is measuring temps of exhaust as close to combustion chamber as possible to try to get an idea on how well things are combusting in that chamber.

Course I guess you could put some drill some holes in your manifold and use EGT probes. But idea here is simple and cheap so others can repeat so we can create comparable data.
Last edited by coachgeo on Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:01 am

John Galt wrote:How could something like that GTech-ProSS work with a diesel? It's highly unlikely that the cigarette lighter socket on my non-computerized '89 diesel truck will give an RPM signal. It's not mentioned at the website, but are they only usable with OBD2 computerized vehicles?
I thought they measured RPM too..... had to go back and look closer to realize the generic ones don't. The higher dollar, "model car specific ones" that do connect to OBD2 will collect RPM data also etc.

Generic ones are just an accelerameter with a computer chip in the box that extrapolates info via forumla's. For example you put in the vehicles weight as a known number. Maybe tire diameter too for all I know.

Then you sit it on your dash and punch it (the gas pedal- dont punch the unit.... wear a seat belt too :) ) .... the accelerometer inside the unit measures acceleration..... it takes that number and via formula's in the computer chip it determines how much HP it takes to move a wheeled object weighing a known amount to that point of acceleration. It I would assume has built in known numbers for friction? wind resistance for average car?)
Last edited by coachgeo on Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:02 am

I have no idea what you're describing, however I do know that 'snap discs' are NOT that. If you're going to make up terminology, then use terms that won't be confused with existing devices. Go to the Omega Engineering website and you will find all sorts of temperature measuring devices.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:18 am

John Galt wrote:I have no idea what you're describing, however I do know that 'snap discs' are NOT that. If you're going to make up terminology, then use terms that won't be confused with existing devices. .....
Did not make up any terms. I said snap disk and I meant snap disk.

just read some more on snap disk..... I see now they dont work like I thought they do. They are an actual physical throw of a switch. Physical movement of the insides of the unit is created by heat acting on a two different metal plates bonded together. The different heat expansion characteristics of the bonded plates cause them to physcially move/change shape (snap) thus physicaly throwing a switch via that movement. My previous message describes how I "thought" they worked.

Still though a dissasembeld snap disc's bimetalic plates could be used in this project. If a piece of metal can heat via an electrical charge then it will produces elecricity when heated via another source.

hmmmmm... wonder if you could just measure the microelctric charge of the exhaust manifold right by the head?

The thing here though is "micro electric" so you got to have something that measures micro volts or amps or what ever

does resistance characteristics of metal change gradually between when it is hot and when it is hotter? Something tells me it does..... hmmmmmm wonder if that is easily measureable?

the problem with testing at the manifold is the temp changes we want may not be measurable there. The metal of the head and surrounding components etc. may average out the temp too much making the micro amount of temp change we want to measure impossible.

arggggggg... I need a shop and some income so much. I would love to test this stuff instead of just throwing out ideas to others to see who might bite.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:59 am

if I understand the info This Info correctly resistance gets higher the hotter a piece of metal gets.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:52 am

Why re-invent the wheel when cheap thermocouple wire will do the job?
Here I'll even give you the link this time http://www.omega.com/temperature/tsc.html
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:11 am

John Galt wrote:.. cheap thermocouple wire will do the job?
... http://www.omega.com/temperature/tsc.html
oh fun... looks like a candy store to me. Prices look good too for the average joe.

With those designs it opens opporutnies to measure the temps in other places that might more closely tell the temp changes going on in the combustion chamber.

Would be cool to measure temp say of the exhaust valve?
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Postby David » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:46 am

You certainly seem to have a knack of dreaming up complicated ideas George! You were confusing me also because I could not see how a snap disk as I knew them ( which was the same as John described) could possibly do what you were alluding to.

As a matter of fact, I still don't see the relationship of combustion temp to power or determining which fuel was burning better. Just because a fuel burns hotter I'm not sure that means t burns better in any way or is more efficient.

With the GTech, the only important thing to know would be the ET's. Faster time, more powerful fuel or if you are running the same fuel and making adjustments to IP timing for instance, better power/ efficiency.
Actual Horsepower is always a concern that is well down the list when modifying a vehicle. Torque is what you are after and it is well known that a higher torque engine will beat a higher power engine every time.

I would think the meaningful numbers would be the ones that could be measured by the units 3 accelerometers.

As for RPM, I think that could be measured through the " chop" of the electrical system's fluctuations. Alternators are 3 phase devices and are rectified but the electrical systems in a lot of cars is not all that well filtered or clean. In a Diesel, the tach function may work better than in a fuel injected car because as long as the power is stable enough not to cause a whine in the radio, few if any other components are not going to be all that fussed.
I'm not sure how the alternator would measure the noise in the electrical system to RPM, probably just take waveforms and compare them to a calibration point where you have to hold the engine at a specific RPM from another tacho or meter.

As long as the thing measured acceleration, you could easily tell if any changes were occurring and its the difference your looking for, not the specifics in this case.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:45 am

David wrote:....As a matter of fact, I still don't see the relationship of combustion temp to power or determining which fuel was burning better. Just because a fuel burns hotter I'm not sure that means t burns better in any way or is more efficient. ....
see if this helps

and this one

The best is the glow plug cause it already sits in / near to the combustion chamber. But like said earlier.... so few have GP's now that option is not there anymore.
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Postby jburke » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:23 am

coachgeo wrote:
jburke wrote:that latop based system is a nice approach, but it has flaws.
this modern one, with the right software, would be better:

http://www.gcdataconcepts.com/xlr8r-1.h ... 7Qod2U0oEA
would be great if there is folk who can create spread sheets with right formulas that can use the date to determing mph, time, HP etc etc.


I can program for it's .csv file. I can go by the sample provided.
Octave has the ability to read .csv files and chart, and it free.
www.octave.org

Have to start from 0 velocity I think. Maybe trim the .csv file.

I have to review my physics.
We have acceleration and time, so we can calculate velocity and distance assuming starting at 0. and knowing the weight of the vehicle, we can calculate Force, from F = m*a, and
Power = F*d.


Coachgeo:
Using g.p.'s as sensors. Didn't you just ask for an update from Darren Hill on his gpp project at infopop?

I ahve a question too. Has anyone tried the direct pressure sensing transducers that can fit in a 10 mm thread?
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:55 am

jburke wrote:...Coachgeo:
Using g.p.'s as sensors. Didn't you just ask for an update from Darren Hill on his gpp project at infopop?
Yep, this thread got me to thinking about getting an update on his data collection etc.[/quote]
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handy tool?

Postby leftcoastjeff » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:37 pm

handy tool or just a toy, it may be helpful in your search for data

http://www.nextautos.com/iphone-app-put ... &nid=26810

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Postby hheynow » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:24 pm

SunWizard wrote:Another method thats available for free to any of us is to get an accurate stopwatch and a helper and do timed 0-60mph acceleration runs with it floored.


Stopwatch for 0-60? My Mercedes needs a calender! :o
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