"Heated Rug/WVO and simular blends- Your experiences p

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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"Heated Rug/WVO and simular blends- Your experiences p

Postby coachgeo » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:49 am

What have you experienced related to vapor issues when using "Heated Rug/WVO or simular blends?

What have you read on this issue??? please try to point to links or other sources on the topic when you can.

thank you
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:57 am

I have had unheated V95/ RUG 5 and V90/ RUG 10 blends cause vapor lock resulting in hard starting in both my 81 and 87 mercedes, with 70-80F weather. The symptoms of mine was that when re-started hot when running errands, it would take sometimes 30 seconds instead of the usual instant start, and then would belch some nasty black smoke (bad sign) compared to the usual no smoke. This is with stock fuel systems (before I 2 tanked the 87), I think this is due to the IP getting very hot on these engines since it has a direct feed of hot engine oil through it. A FPHE isn't needed for trouble, a heat soaked engine bay with a thick insulating hood pad (all mercedes have for noise reduction) is plenty of heat for trouble in some engines. A FPHE will make it worse for vapor lock, but much better for VO use (without RUG) in any engine.

Here are threads with many vapor lock problems and RUG, many are unheated:
Vapor lock

Won't start when hot!!!

Blend heating

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 5531092762

And you get 160 other posts if you do a search there on vapor lock.
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Postby Turbogeno » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:12 am

I've had no vapor lock issues with my heated system. FPHE and injection line heaters. New lift pump and electric booster pump in the trunk. My ip gets real hot after turning on the FPHE and the injectors get up to 180°f. I've gone as high as 15% rug but generally run about 10%

Thanks, Geno
1985 MB 300D. 215k. Home made 2 tank conversion.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:47 am

Turbogeno wrote:I've had no vapor lock issues... electric booster pump in the trunk....
Thanks Geno,

In review of the literature provided by Sun and others... I did discover a suprise. Really didnt expect to see any success but like yours I did.

Seems that your booster pump, or a pump back by the tank is the key.

There was only a fraction of discussion on this in all the links but it makes since. Majority of diesels PULL / SUCK the fuel forward via vacuum and basic science says put vacuum on most liquids and you lower it's boiling point. Put pressure on it and you increase the boiling point.

So ifff you want to try RUG blends with more than say around 5% RUG (literature on average reported up to 5% with no vapor issues, YMMV)... you need to consider your fuel pump you have or consider changing it.

Also find out how high of pressure the IP likes at its "input" so you do not over pressure it.

You also have to consider fuel filters. A good number of them are designed to be mounted on the suction side! Makes since they would do that to match the typical diesel that sucks fuel up to the pump.
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Postby John Galt » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:43 pm

I've seen no vapor lock problems with a FPHE heated fuel blend system using naphtha and kerosene as a VO solvents. Toyota has the fuel filter on the pressure side of the lift pump, and I connected the FPHE between the lift pump and the filter. On the turbo engines Toyota also returns fuel to the tank which also reduces the amount of negative pressure the lift pump would draw on the fuel lines. It's effectively a big fuel loop with the tank included in the loop, and a filtered vent line at the tank that lets enough air in to replace the fuel consumed.
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Postby Turbogeno » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:26 pm

My filters are new too. Here's a drawing of my setup. I took my 100's of pages of reading/research and put together a KISS system I hope will work for the long run.

http://www.genedevera.com/temp/mb-veg-diagram.jpg

Thanks, Geno
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Postby David » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:31 pm

While The Vacuum Theroy of the pumps is logical, I don't believe it works out in practice.

I have had vapour issues in my merc with a HE before the prefilter. At 20% ULP it will have vapour issues at any temp if it is idling for any length of time. At 10% it is fine at anytime.

If the vapour was caused by the vacuum of the pump, on the Merc setup, once the fuel passed through the lift pump it would be under pressure and logically re- condense. Furthermore, the Merc OEM fuel filter bleeds off any air in the system and returns it to the tank so unless the pump were not supplying enough fuel in the first place which is hard to believe given With the vac/ pressure setup of the Lift pump, then any vapour that didn't re- condense would be bled off anyway and the IP would be fed a constant supply of liquid fuel.

This being the case, it is my belief that the main vaporization Occurs in or after the IP where there is no way for the air to be bled off and the primary cause is heat boiling out the ULP.

I can run up to 15% heated in winter with no probs and 10% in summer which I currently have in the car now. I am still 2 tanking and starting on bio but am adding the ULP because The car has been spending a lot of time idling in traffic and this does not seem to be doing it a lot of good.
I am hoping the ULP will help the Veg burn cleaner at idle and lessen the resulting deposits that the water injection doesn't get a chance to shift given the lack of opportunity to use full throttle to activate it.
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Postby coachgeo » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:37 pm

David wrote:... once the fuel passed through the lift pump it would be under pressure and logically re- condense (vapor).....
Your miss understanding.

If it turns to vapor before the fuel pump...... the vapor WILL NOT PASS THRU THE FUEL PUMP. It is a "liquid fuel" pump. It will not pump a vapor, or anything in a gasious state,j thus It can't move vapor. Thus this "re - condense" you speak of will not happen. Least that is my understanding.

Also the vapor will slow movement of the liquid fuel by various means .

..If the vapour was caused by the vacuum of the pump, on the Merc setup,
. the vacuum does not cause the vapor. It just makes it easier to happen due to a lower boiling point is how it seesm to shake down to me.

As to the OEM air bleeding fuel filter, Air is little different than gas vapor. There for the mechanism in the fuel filter (hollow banjo bolt) may not bleed gas vapor as well as air. It might need a wider pasage thru the banjo bolt for gas/petro vapor?

BTW.... the do make inline fuel filters for gasser cars that are set up to bleed off gas/petro vapor. You cold maybe utilize one of these and plumb it to the return line and push it back to the fuel tank?
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Postby David » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:19 am

coachgeo wrote:the vapor WILL NOT PASS THRU THE FUEL PUMP. It is a "liquid fuel" pump. It will not pump a vapor, or anything in a gasious state,j thus It can't move vapor.
Also the vapor will slow movement of the liquid fuel by various means .



I believe the Pump will pump air/ vapor as it will self prime. I have blown out the fuel lines completely on my car several times and when pumping the manual pump it is able to pull the air and subsequently the fuel through.

I do agree though that this will slow the pumping action so maybe a starvation could occur through that.

The devices you refer to for petrol cars are called swirl pots or surge tanks and their purpose is to remove any entrapped air that is in the fuel. High performance petrol cars can have powerful pumps which cause cavitation and this is what these devices are designed to remove. as far as I know, the majority have no filtering function.

One thing I have also recommended these swirl pots for is to prevent starvation at intermittent high demand loads without having to go to oversize pumps OR, when a high pressure pump is used to ensure adequate fuel FLOW without excessive PRESSURE.

Many of these pots will hold a litre or more of fuel and basically fuel is drawn to the engine from the bottom and the fuel returns from the top. By using one of these pots, a high pressure pump can make sure there is plenty of fuel to the engine area but the excess pressure is bled off back to the tank. The standard lift pump then has a adequate supply to draw from and only has a short distance to draw it from.

Some of these pots also come or can be fitted with a pressure regulator so you can dial a specific pressure on the pot which will remain constant and will feed another pump or say an IP at the specific pressure you dial in.
I'm surprised more people in the veg game haven't got onto these things.



Image
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:01 am

hmmm..... interesting. Never heard or seen a fuel pot.

I am talking of small inline 3 port fuel filters available at any cheapozone. They are the size of the typical little plastic inline fuel filter. Have seen some that are metal, others that are plastic.

My understanding is they are used to bleed vapor out the 3rd port. There are various designs. I assume each one is designed for a particular application/model of gasser. Having never seen one in use on a gasser I can only guess that two ports; one in, one out,, are oriented horizontal or up and back down for flow fuel and the third is oriented upward to bleed vapor.
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Postby rtarh2o » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:38 pm

SunWizard, tell me more about your Mercedes blend? I have spoken with you on another forum. I recently bought a 94 Mercedes G350. It has the 3.5 liter 6 which is basically the same as your 5 cylinder from what you said. I haven't really taken much of a look under the hood at mine but you say the IP has an oil line running through it? So basically it heats the fuel like a heated filter would do. So a heated filter would be overkill? I am thinking about adding an extra fuel pump at the tank to help purge the system (I had one on my 6.2 diesel land cruiser) and it was great. Does the Mercedes need that, or does the filter actually bleed the system as was stated? What about after the filter? Is your system completely stock?
Sorry for all of the questions but I want to make sure I do everything right, this is a bit more expensive learning curve than the 6.2 was!
Thanks
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94 6.2 Diesel Toyota Land Cruiser 7,000 miles on blend (sold)
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:38 pm

rtarh2o wrote:SunWizard, tell me more about your Mercedes blend? I have spoken with you on another forum. I recently bought a 94 Mercedes G350. It has the 3.5 liter 6 which is basically the same as your 5 cylinder from what you said.

No, its almost the same as my 87 3.0 liter 6 cylinder, in the converted vehicle database here:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about365.html
I don't blend in it except the first 2000 miles, then I did a 2 tank rig. The fuel system of the 6 is the same as a 5 but much more power, and much quieter, and less maintenance since the valves are hydraulic and don't need adjusted every 15k.
I haven't really taken much of a look under the hood at mine but you say the IP has an oil line running through it? So basically it heats the fuel like a heated filter would do. So a heated filter would be overkill?

Not overkill since you need good heat before a filter to get better flow when cold. A FPHE is always the best. The motor oil takes a lot longer to warm up than the coolant. Yes, the IP has a hot oil flow going through it, and its one reason they last so long.
I am thinking about adding an extra fuel pump at the tank to help purge the system (I had one on my 6.2 diesel land cruiser) and it was great. Does the Mercedes need that, or does the filter actually bleed the system as was stated? What about after the filter? Is your system completely stock?

No pump needed, the stock one is mechanical piston and is the strongest you can get. The stock return flow purges air quickly.

My 81 is completely stock and runs on V80/D20 blend, and I stop using it below 20F when there is usually snow on my steep driveway and I need 4wd anyway.

This is off topic for this thread and I will move it to the 87 merc. thread I gave above.
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