Blending on the fly - components and theory

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:01 pm

John Galt wrote:....I see this as also a way of running high VO percent blends of clear VO in the main tank, with just a small portable container of low VO percent purging/starting fluid which would vary with temperature. I can avoid using hydrogenated oil and fats in the vehicle as they are much better used to heat he house.
Yes I see that potential too. this way would for sure still be a Two Tanker by defintion of the Two "drive" Tank concept as presented on the previous page.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:52 pm

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Postby David » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:36 pm

Some interesting points.

I think the complexity in the additive system would be in " tuning" it and getting the injected amount of thinner right.

I don't know how they work exactly but maybe something useful coud be learned from studying the way oil injected outboards work. I'm not sure if they blend the fuel similar to what is proposed here or they fire it straight into the engine. No doubt some searches would be able to discover the answer. Either way it may be possible to adapt a module which may also offer an easy way to adjust the amount of thinner added to the line.

To me, if there are 2 fuel tanks, it's a 2 tank system. I understand the idea of the car being able to only run on fuel from one, but it you have 2 tanks to keep topped up and maintained, then seems to me it's a 2 tanker in practicality even if you want to call it a different name to differentiate it from traditional 2 tank systems.

Is it being said here that the problem is with petrol vaporizing or is there a problem using diesel heated blends as well ? Distillate here is the term for Diesel fuel. Is this different elsewhere?
I have never read of vapor problems with Dino. If it's just with petrol then the simple solution to me would be to run Dino as the agent with a bit of petrol or have a look at using a lower ration of kero or jet fuel. 3 part blends have worked well for me.

If it is the vacum causing the fuel to vaporize, perhaps it would also be easier to fit an electric fuel pump nearest the tank so the fuel is under pressure through the fuel lines all the way to the engine area. High pressures could be run in the fuel lines and HE all the way to just before the IP where a pressure regulator could be fitted to drop the pressure back down to a limit safe for the IP .
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:50 pm

hmmmmm... maybe I am confusing people by using "distilate" Diesel is a distilate fraction from oil. I forgot that. Course all fuels are a distilate from oil.

Im thinking more of fractions of petrol, additives like Naptha, RUG itself maybe something else like 5 gal offff..... Beetle juice additive. the only reason for the other tanks in this case is cause blending the % of it you want too causes vapor lock issues when preblended. Keeping it seperate and mixing it in at a later point where it wont vaporize is all your doing.

the reason Im seperating the physical number of tanks out of what I call "two tanker "setups and "one tank setups" is because the means by how they operate no matter how many tanks they have are totaly different.

You could have a what has become to be known as a typical WVO "two tanker" arrangement with three tanks if you wanted and it won't become a three tanker. It will become a two tanker and Aux. tank. Two tankers are those vehicles that have TWO different TYPES of fuel that the vehicle can use to drive down the road on.

No different thought process than when talking about an old ford truck with one tank and an Aux. tank. Both tanks.... have the same fuel... so one is the main tank and other is known as the Aux tank. It is NOT a second tank with a second fuel in it and that is why they have never been refered to as two tankers as far as I have ever heard.

A "typical" two tanker in the WVO world also means one of the tanks has a heat source to thin out the WVO and associated coolant plumbed to do that.

A "one tanker" as we typically know it in the WVO world has ONE TYPE of fuel the vehicle can use to drive down the road on. If one has bottles of naptha behind the seat they can use to add their WVO fuel does it make it a two tanker? Nope. If one has a Gallon jug of naptha in the bed of the truck does it make it a two tanker? No. If one has a 5 Gal tank/drum/jug/Spitoon of Naptha plumbed to be mixed in to the fuel under thet hood does it make it a two tanker. NO! There is still only One source of driving fuel. Rest are just a container(s) of additives.

Also a "one tanker" as it has become to be know in the WVO world (AKA Elsbitt concept) may or may not have a heated tank... the ultimate goal is to not have to heat it or nothing. Just pour in and go. A goal not yet obtainable but with a very few vehicles.

Sorta wasting time on symnatics of "one" and "two". Just know the defintions as presented and roll with it.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:06 pm

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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:08 pm

John Galt wrote:What a complicated explanation for a potentially simple VO fuel system.
Well duh that was my point... why were you guys forcing me to explain it instead of arguing symantics :twisted:

anyway... moving on.
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:09 pm

David wrote:....If it is the vacum causing the fuel to vaporize, perhaps it would also be easier to fit an electric fuel pump nearest the tank so the fuel is under pressure through the fuel lines all the way to the engine area. High pressures could be run in the fuel lines and HE all the way to just before the IP where a pressure regulator could be fitted to drop the pressure back down to a limit safe for the IP .


That has been the other means of doing it. A discussion on this would make a GREAT NEW THREAD. hmmm.. or is their a thread started on that one already.. Honestly I cant remember.

anyway so far review of material has shown few to switch to a pressurized fuel system or maybe more did but only a few reported their success. Not as nicely pressurized as you suggested though.

Most who have reported tried blending in a typical vacuum arranged diesel fuel system and when they got vapor lock just said..... "ok.... there is proof..... it wont work" or they lowered the % additive down to prevent vapor lock but unfortunately not enough for good combustion thus got cokeing etc..... then again claimed the same... "see it wont work" thing

Now why mix over a pressurized system. (or combination?)

Im getting the feeling that available additives may not make a blend with a wide enough band of use with out causing cocking of injector's and/ rings or other injector problems somewhere in the band. I think we can agree that start up side of the band of use is where the problem lies the most. Further away from start up.... or can also be said.... further toward normal operating temps.. the less of an issue.

Start up seems to need different blends. Diesel suffers the same affect its just so much less and engineers planned for it in advance by having timing automatically change at start up etc.

We unfortunately do not have the souces to re-engineer the injection systems for start up like the manufacture has... but we might can finagle way to blend on the fly for different points in the vehicle use.

Say start up. Stop and Go, and open highway.
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Postby John Galt » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:25 am

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Simple Auxillary Fuel System

Postby John Galt » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:47 am

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Postby David » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:44 am

I'm getting a headache!

:oops:

Still seems easier and less trouble to me to run a normal 2 tank setup with say dino for start up and a dino blend for run fuel if you think the WVO won't burn properly on it's own.

I added a simple WI system for a bit of insurance which was cheap, simple and appears to be very effective.
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Postby coachgeo » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:57 pm

David wrote:....Still seems easier and less trouble to me to run a normal 2 tank setup with say dino for start up and a dino blend for run fuel....
Thats one of many ways to skin that cat.

Since that is not the topic of this discussion though its not much help but thanks.
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:58 pm

Best blends:
Start up: 100% D2.
Once warmed: V100.

Very easy conversions for this available, tested and proven. The best method has been shown repeatedly to be to switch to any VO only after the engine is warmed up, so if you are adding a 2nd tank and a valve, why not operate that way?

The complexity you still have not addressed with this idea is how do you set and monitor your "on-the-fly" blend ratio over wide ranges of RPM and load? This seems much more complex than a simple valve or 2. And you would still need a purge process to get the IP, filter, and lines to contain a blend thats suitable for your next cold start.
Last edited by SunWizard on Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:05 pm

John Galt wrote:...within that framework, what did the comment mean?
from the review of the material I read most whom had vapor issues had a OEM original fuel system and/or simular (pump in engine bay) thusly moving fuel via vaccum from tank to pump. Some had added heat, some didn't. It was not well noted if added heat was on the vaccume side or not. Typically though in the WVO world is it not the norm to have heat added on the vaccume side more so than the pressure side?... particularly priot to FPHE coming into use.
Last edited by coachgeo on Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:19 pm

SunWizard wrote:Best blends:
Start up: 100% D2.
Once warmed: V100.

Very easy conversions for this available, tested and proven. The best method has been shown repeatedly to be to switch to any VO only after the engine is warmed up...,
Can not say that is the best method... its just the most common method. Not sure how much or little an on the fly mixing has been tried.

Besides.... comparisions.... good and bad etc. is not the topic of this discussion.
The complexity you still have not addressed with this idea is how do you set and monitor your "on-the-fly" blend ratio over wide ranges of RPM and load? This seems much more complex than a simple valve or 2.
Thank you for moving on into the meat of this discussion.

In one of my previous post I mentioned that it seems there are only really three distinct areas where a blend might need to be different.

. Start up
. stop and go / Downhill
. highway driving.

This might also be labled as

. Well below operating temps (ambiant to say 50% Operating temp?)
. Below optimal operating temp .... what say 50+ to 99% operating temp?)
. Full operating Temp

Second one could be divided again if you folk felt it neccissary. So could the first one. Particularly for those in the cold north.

Thus at this point in time could see using some type of temp sensor to monitor engine temps and change blends according to them.

But some of you might have an better sensor idea such as O2 sensor in the exhaust?? orrrrrrr?????

also matters the car. newer cars have sensors all over the freaken place lol. Might be able to tap data off one of them but that would take an automotive computer oriented person to jump in here and add his/her knowledge.
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:44 pm

Most simplify it to 2 temps that matter:
Below full operating temp, At full temp.

Why add complexity and have some level between? On my vehicles once the temp guage starts moving its <1 minute to full temp even when cold outside. Stop & go and downhill if your thermostat is working properly, it maintains full temp by closing off any flow to the radiator. If thats not enough to maintain full temp, block part of your radiator.
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