Blending on the fly - components and theory

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby David » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:38 am

123eddie wrote:Promoters of Hydrogen generators claim to create a better burn which intern could mean less coking on a single tank.


Promoters of Hydrogen generators claim a LOT of things that don't stand up to scrutiny under the laws of Physics, Chemistry or basic common sense.

I am always amused how if someone says they hooked a couple of wires to a tin can full of water and got 50% better mileage, The believers will congradulate the person and hold them out as " Proof" the concept works.
If someone builds some elaborate system that follows the prescribed methodology to the letter and sees no result, there is always, without exception, some far fetched excuse as to why it didn't work.

" Oh, you didn't crosswire the solar Braffanator to the left handed torsion spigot absorber properly. Fix that and every other excuse we come up with and you'll get 100MPG out of a freight train!" :roll:
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Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby WD8CDH » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:22 am

Hydrogen (or propane) may help with a cleaner burn once the engine warms up but probably won't help at all with cold oil starts.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
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Postby 123eddie » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:17 am

I am not a believer in the hydrogen movement but a friend with an engineer back ground that runs wvo is and he is working on building a generator.

In the late 70's I read an article about injecting water into your engine and I feel for it. I believe it was in Mother Earth News so my little Honda got a water bottle, a tee and needle valve and if I remember right the water was injected into air intake and was supposed to bring great fuel mileage results. I knew the car well and with the odometer exactly how many miles I could go and you guessed it I stayed exactly the same. This little project was probably only $10. I seem to remember David posting about water injection on his diesel and this might be a possible route for Coaches post that would be easy.

Ron's mention of propane is another on that is being used and has complete kits available. Most people do it for performance improvements on diesel but it could apply with the wvo.

The biggest problem that I see thru experience with single tanking is the fats that clog your lines and filters and Sun's post earlier that why not just go 2 tank instead of messing with injection of some thing at the engine is a valid one.

I leave in southern ca and 2 tank a 98 dodge 12 valve off of Sun's design and it runs great. My wife who demanded no gauges , switches or second tank in the back of her 1983 merecedes is single tanking with an elsbett conversion. My original home filtration system was designed after Ron's heated up flow and although I had clean oil the fats would settle in the tank and lines and pre filter and after having it towed once I had to come up with a better way. A friend had a bowl centrifuge and we ran 30 gallons of my clean filtered oil slow and pulled out a pint of fats and for the last eight months her car runs fine. I now have my own centrifuge and her oil is the low fat version.
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Postby David » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:16 am

123eddie wrote:
I knew the car well and with the odometer exactly how many miles I could go and you guessed it I stayed exactly the same.


Every thing I have read on water injection from sources I consider honest and creditable, all say that Water injection will NOT increase fuel mileage and give explanations as to why this is that are supported by other things I know about engines and tuning.

I use WI to prevent Deposits in my engine and also for an increase in power when I mix up a water/ Meth solution to give a performance boost.
As I run my cars predominantly on veg which I have never had to pay for, economy is not something that is of particular concern to me nor a benefit I expect from WI.


The biggest problem that I see thru experience with single tanking is the fats that clog your lines and filters


I have added a simple home made coolant powered Heat exchanger before my filters and have never had this problem. I have in fact started my engine from cold with the fuel pickup in a drum of liquid fats and the car ran with no problem.
As long as some oil/ fuel can get through to keep the engine running long enough till the engine gives the HE enough heat to melt the fats ( which is only around 40oC/ 100F) then from there on the fats will become liquid and pass through the filters the same as oil.

For this reason I don't see the need to eliminate all the fats from oil if a HE is fitted and I would guess that with 25% fats ( or more) dissolved in oil should pose no problem in above freezing temps.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
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Postby 123eddie » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:46 am

Quote: I have added a simple home made coolant powered Heat exchanger before my filters and have never had this problem. I have in fact started my engine from cold with the fuel pickup in a drum of liquid fats and the car ran with no problem.

I run the Mercedes through the stock lift pump and find that the majority of the problems happen at the stock pre filter before the lift pump. I was thinking of adding heat before the lift and maybe a second FPHE or something home made like yours..... right before the lift pump. The pre filters are cheap and I now change them when the car gets sluggish and it appears that fat is clogging the screen. I mostly run 100% wvo with an occasional 2-3 gal diesel thrown in the winter.

Quote: I use WI to prevent Deposits in my engine and also for an increase in power when I mix up a water/ Meth solution to give a performance boost

Excellant reason I should consider WI for my wife's car and maybe the best answer to Coaches orginal post.
123eddie
 
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Postby coachgeo » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:31 pm

combustion enhancers, rather it be Brown Gas, LP, WI, W/Meth-I, or ether, would seem to me to be a logical way to make sure you get full combustion on any kind of blend when the engine and fuel is not at needed temps. Particularly at start up when IP and fuel lines are full of your last blend and not pure diesel.

Then again... the orginal idea presented here of having a somewhat variable blend does not remove the use of using a timer or the sort to; once at your destination, not do full shut down for a specific time period. AKA-till the mix has been reduced to pure diesel thus burning off the last blend used and filling system with diesel. Could also include a purge to the veg tank. Adultrating that at shut down may not be an issue
Last edited by coachgeo on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WD8CDH » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:54 pm

123eddie wrote:<snip> My original home filtration system was designed after Ron's heated up flow and although I had clean oil the fats would settle in the tank and lines and pre filter and after having it towed once I had to come up with a better way. A friend had a bowl centrifuge and we ran 30 gallons of my clean filtered oil slow and pulled out a pint of fats and for the last eight months her car runs fine. I now have my own centrifuge and her oil is the low fat version.


Hi eddie,

You could also follow or precede the heated upflow with a cold upflow settling tank just to remove most of the fat. You could run the oil thru the cold upflow a lot faster if you were only trying to remove fat and not water too. Of course even at the higher flow rate, you will remove SOME water. Less energy and labor than a CF.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby 123eddie » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:09 am

Hi Ron, I was running my 55 gallon heated up flow into a 55 gallon cold up flow and letting that oil flow into 15 gallon drums that I numbered and used according to longest time settling. There was always some fat in the bottom of 15 gallon drums and the oil that I would pump into the car would eventually settle some more fats when placed in a glass jar. So that we don't hijack Coach's original post I'll move this over to the filtration side with photos of old and new system.
123eddie
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:46 am
Location: Encinitas CA

Postby David » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:09 am

123eddie wrote: I was thinking of adding heat before the lift and maybe a second FPHE or something home made like yours.....


I recommend putting a HE before the first filter to melt out any fats. I'm not a fan of The OEM MB " strainer", I use disposable inline paper filters to save my main filter and actually give the oil some real filtering before it hits the lift pump.

You do not need a HE after the lift pump on an MB.
Drive your car till it is properly up to temp and heat soaked and then put your finger on the lift pump, the Main filter housing and the IP.
Once you have treated the burns on your fingers, You will know exactly why heating after the Lift pump or before the IP is unnecessary with the MB fuel system. .

:lol:
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby WD8CDH » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:46 am

David wrote:I recommend putting a HE before the first filter to melt out any fats. I'm not a fan of The OEM MB " strainer", I use disposable inline paper filters to save my main filter and actually give the oil some real filtering before it hits the lift pump.

You do not need a HE after the lift pump on an MB.
Drive your car till it is properly up to temp and heat soaked and then put your finger on the lift pump, the Main filter housing and the IP.
Once you have treated the burns on your fingers, You will know exactly why heating after the Lift pump or before the IP is unnecessary with the MB fuel system. .

:lol:


Hi David,

If you put thermocouples on both the engine and the IP, you will see that while the IP does heat up to engine temperature, it takes much longer for the IP to heat up than the engine. Not using a final heat exchanger means longer switchover times for two tank or excess coking etc. for single tank.

Even after the engine and IP are fully warmed up, exhaust gas analysis shows slightly better combustion with a final heat exchanger than without.

While a final heat exchanger may not be necessary, it is "better", especially for long engine life.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
'85 MB 300DT 2 Tank
Since '81 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Prior to the cars, several generators
Kubota Tractor
WD8CDH
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:44 am
Location: NY

Postby 123eddie » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:40 am

A friend just stopped by asking if I knew where any Mercedes motors were as his just blew up with 300,000 miles all of which were on diesel. So if my single tank Mercedes blows up is it the veg oils fault?

In the beginning I though that the two tankers were extremist and now that I have a two tank Dodge I feel that it was easy to convert and prefer it to my wife's single tank. It is better to purge on diesel and have diesel in your lines in case an injector is leaking and loading your cylinders up after shut off among the obvious reasons of start up and bringing the engine to temp. My wife still wants no part of pushing a switch at start and shut off.

Back on track to the original post I'm leaning towards Brown's Gas injection over propane and the other volatile fluids because of the simplicity of the hydrogen generator and the gas gets injected into the air intake as a simple way to help single tanks burn fuel more efficiently and Maybe avoid some veg oil mixing with the motor oil. This would be cheaper and less space consuming than propane. David's water with methane is also another posibility to consider.

The major advantage to single tanks is no warm ups and for those who own a big daily driving two tank truck with only 5 miles to work a single tank mercedes make sense if your local climate allows.
123eddie
 
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:46 am
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