Blending on the fly - components and theory

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

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Blending on the fly - components and theory

Postby coachgeo » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:17 pm

Starting this thread to collect potential "how to's" and parts needed to mix Veg oil and other things; particularly Petrol on the fly.

Why... if you can mix the petrol on the fly AFTER the oil is heated and after the oil is under pressure, right before the IP, one might could eliminate the vaproization of the petrol which often causes engine performance issues.

Here is teo website that makes a mixing nozzle or some such animal

http://www.vortexventures.com/Products/ ... ozzles.htm

http://www.sonicmixing.com/Sonolator_Principle.htm

What has not hit me yet is how to mix variable rates according to engine demand.
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Re: Blending on the fly - components and theory

Postby Burbarian » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:04 pm

coachgeo wrote:Why... if you can mix the petrol on the fly AFTER the oil is heated and after the oil is under pressure, right before the IP, one might could eliminate the vaproization of the petrol which often causes engine performance issues.


I fail to see the point of adding petrol to VO after it has been heated? If it draws, flows, pumps and filters well without petrol, then adding it after the fact instead of it being added at the beginning to improve cold flow, seem pointless.
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Re: Blending on the fly - components and theory

Postby coachgeo » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:19 pm

Burbarian wrote:I fail to see the point of adding petrol to VO after it has been heated? If it draws, flows, pumps and filters well without petrol, then adding it after the fact instead of it being added at the beginning to improve cold flow, seem pointless.

I fail to see the point of adding petrol to VO after it has been heated? ...
Vaporizing issues prior to the IP is one of the two factors that makes it hard to decipher the benefits of using some distilates as a combustion enhancer; not just as a thinner.

Also in some instances it has been shown you cant get enough distilate to thin it as much as you need to reduce injector coking etc. because the vacuum characteristics of the fuel system prior to the fuel pump lowers the boiling point and allows the distilate to vaporize some. Adding in the distilate (or more distilate) on the pressure side; I would think, should work better because the pressure side actually raises the boiling point.

This will allow one to experement with using higher % of some petrolum distilates.

the other factor not getting into this thread on... is being able to figure out where to adjust the setting of timing to match the burn characteristics of the fuel blend you are using.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:39 am

With the system I'm using the heat exchanger is on the pressure side of the fuel feed pump. Because the heated mix with naphtha and kerosene is under pressure it shows no adverse affects sometimes noted with volatile additives like naphtha or gasoline.
Therefore I see no advantage with 'blending on the fly'
Last edited by John Galt on Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:53 am

If Im folowing your example right, if your speaking of blending WVO into the other fuel. That means that whatever your other compoents are.... can run the vehicle on their own leaving only Diesel and Kero as your choice of blending agent. Making it a different version of a two tanker.

My thoughts are along the lines of a one tanker and to on the fly blend the distilate into and not the wvo into Im talking blending in naptha, RUG etc. into WVO that has been thinned (by heat or otherwise) only enough to move it thru the fuel lines but not enough yet to inject it into the engine.

Such as say A FPHE or so to add a big heat boost to WVO after the fuel pump then a final shot of blending distilates prior to the IP.

Im trying to eleminate starts on a fuel that, burns fine when the engine is hot but leaves deposits, gums and causes coking at startups.
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Postby WD8CDH » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:33 am

I have found that a simple Tee makes a poor mixer but if you follow it with a "Static Mixer", you can get a very good blend. The problem is control and purge. With direct return, you will contaminate the supply and with looped return, you don't know how much thinner to add without knowing what blend is already in the loop.
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:36 pm

WD8CDH wrote: "Static Mixer", you can get a very good blend.
ahhhh... a new term to search by. I'll check on these gizmos.
The problem is control and purge. With direct return, you will contaminate the supply and with looped return, you don't know how much thinner to add without knowing what blend is already in the loop.
Maybe not. Loop return to a small tank ahead of the blending gizmo. Small tank say a Pint size, that has a vapor/ air bleed to atmosphere?

purge... hmmmm... :?:
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:00 pm

If you are going to do that level of complexity, you might as well do a simpler 2 tank system, since starting on 100% D2 is always the best. A system like you are discussing would be capable of that, then switching to heated V100 is always better once the engine is warm, because it saves you the cost of the blend fuel, and avoids the extra complexity of trying to monitor the blend %.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:16 pm

Of course not everyone agrees:
Even though I don't often practice what I preach as far as early changeovers and cold oil starts go, in over 2 years and 45,000KM my car continues to go very well.

As for "contamination" (an inappropriate term)of the start fuel, I think this is an over Rated issue. Yes, some of the oil in my setup does go back to the start tank. I have measured this to be less than 200Ml on each purge. Rather than go to expense and complication to prevent a bit of blending, I simply deal with it by keeping the start tank topped up or when the oil percentage becomes a bit high as demonstrated by slower starts, I simply dump the start fuel in the oil tank and refill it with fresh Bio. This thins the run fuel a bit which is only a good thing especially in winter and keeps the conversion cheap and simple. I don't mind the tiny bit of extra effort this might take, I'm not a person that has to have automatic everything and it allows me to keep an eye on how things are going with the fuel system.

Other people see the cross fueling as far more of an issue than I do so install appropriate preventions. I guess it all comes down to how big of an issue you see this to be and how much maintenance you are prepared to do.
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:47 pm

SunWizard wrote:If you are going to do that level of complexity, you might as well do a simpler 2 tank system, since starting on 100% D2...
you might be right. Not sure if it will actually be more complex though.

Also... this way should work on short drive senarios where many two tank sets ups do not.
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Postby Burbarian » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:30 pm

Coach, that is an interesting and valid point. I had not considered short trips in the scenario, as my own trips are 20 miles at a minimum. (live out in the boonies)
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Postby John Galt » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:45 pm

OT message deleted
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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:16 pm

not a bad idea John.

You and I are looking at this very differntly though.

Your mindset sees it as a two tanker. Start and stop on diesel and blend in WVO as things warm up.

Im seeing it as a one tanker that is WVO full time and you blend in distilates according to temp (or lack off) etc.

maybe something in the middle is the best angle of approach?

A one tanker that has minimal blend to allow for flow of fuel in cold temps (not gell) but not so much it wants to vaporize, and then at someplace close to IP you heat then blend/mix/inject in additional distilate according to temps, etc. to get more full combustion.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:23 pm

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Postby coachgeo » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:43 pm

John.... think we define two tank differently. Im thinking in concept not in # physical of tanks.

Two Tanker :arrow: Two "drive tanks" that requires shut down of one tank and purge of system to the tank holding the most universal fuel.

Drive fuel tank #1 is a universally usable fuel used (diesel, biod D, a very light blend of diesel and something)
drive fuel tank #2 is another thank that is switched to at the opportune time (or blended out of) and replaces (or mostly replaces) consumption of fuel from tank 1.

Thus the name Two tanker.. cause both are capable as drive tanks. Might not start to well on both tanks but at normal op. temps it will drive on either one.

One tanker :arrow: One "Drive tank"
One tank with a primary drive fuel. ... In my senario that drive fuel is not as universal (all temps) as you would like so you have a:

additives tank((s) say RUG that is mixed in at the right time to adjust to the situation. Maybe even a third tank... say LP that is injected at start ups for more complete burn. Just one of the green campsite bottles.

That other tanks beside the "One drive tank" fuel can NOT in anyway fuel the vehicle on its own. There for they are not considered second "drive" tanks. They are just holding ehancers/additives that are used on the fly to help the One drive tank's fuel fit the engines needs at hand better. Thus the name One Tanker

while this is sounding like a complicated build. Not sure if it is more so than a typical two tanker butt... it cuts out alot to all of preblending prior to puting it in the one tank. It sorta creates an on the fly custom blending accoding to needs of the engine.
Last edited by coachgeo on Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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