What do you do before you burn veg?

Collecting, filtering and dewatering of WVO SVO vegetable oil. For Biodiesel producers too.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

What do you do before you burn veg?

Postby tubular031 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:20 am

What tests (if any) are you guys doing on your oil before you pump it into your vehicle?

I have heard a few stories where people have ran some clean and dewatered oil but there was some soap or cleaner in the oil that caused the injectors to fail.

my main source does not put any cleaners in my barrel. I have gotten some oil from a bunch of other places where the source is just about unknown. how can I test for nasties in the oil before I pump it into my truck?
01 F350 CCLB SRW

Veggie conversion done!
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623
tubular031
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Postby coachgeo » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:51 pm

alot of that stuff is water soluble so if your removing all your water* (and testing to make sure) then your one step ahead.

you could allways take a cup full... water wash it. Let water fall out. Drain off water and PH test the water?

*unless removing by evaporation/boiling off
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby tubular031 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:41 pm

Someone once said something about a shake test and look for bubbles (soap)

Do you test for soap before you burn the oil?
01 F350 CCLB SRW

Veggie conversion done!
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623
tubular031
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Postby coachgeo » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:45 pm

oh boy....

you've got a lot of reading to do.

soap is produced in the process of making biodiesel.

very different animal, no soap in WVO
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby tubular031 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:48 pm

ok not soap I mean cleaner from the fryers.

I have been making biod for about 6 months now and am going to be running svo because bio is such a pain!!
01 F350 CCLB SRW

Veggie conversion done!
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623
tubular031
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Postby SunWizard » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:13 pm

My testing shows if you get out all the water, it also removes soaps, salts, acids, bases. If the trouble was caused by those in your stories, they didn't dewater enough. See
TDS meter testing to decide whether to mistwash for how I determined this.
I do a hot pan test on every batch.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby John Galt » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:47 pm

My testing shows if you get out all the water, it also removes soaps, salts, acids, bases.

That's only if the water is removed by settling. Removing water by evaporation concentrates the contaminants.
Last edited by John Galt on Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Postby tubular031 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:46 pm

Interesting... I was planning on drying the oil by evaporation/settling.

I like the idea of taking a sample (maybe .5 gal) and washing it to see what falls out with the water. maybe shake it also looking for bubbles

A guy i know went and got some oil from a dumpster and de watered it and filtered it like he has SOOOOO many times and found there was some cleaner in the vo and it toasted his injectors. my main place says they dont put any cleaners in my barrel but they just changed cooks and the new guy started dumping all kinds of nasty chunks in my barrel and also left it uncovered in the rain!! I had a nice little chat with the owner last weekend and again this weekend telling him to crack the whip on the new guy!
01 F350 CCLB SRW

Veggie conversion done!
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623
tubular031
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Postby David » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:15 pm

[quote="tubular031"
A guy i know went and got some oil from a dumpster and de watered it and filtered it like he has SOOOOO many times and found there was some cleaner in the vo and it toasted his injectors. [/quote]

Exacty What FACTS lead him to believe this oil had some " cleaner" in it that was the cause of the injector failure?

I personally find it very hard to believe that the oil could have that much caustic material that it would ruin injectors in a tank or 3 as your account would seem to indicate.

Having read so many accounts of all manner of problems supposedly caused by running diesel engines on Veg oil and so much of it laughably impossible, You will have to forgive me if I am extremely skeptical about a lot of anecdotal accounts of damage people put forward with not a shred of proof.

If your friend took a sample of the oil to be tested and it was found to be high in caustic and his injectors had not been in the car years without being serviced or tested than I would believe the oil was the problem. If not, then I would have to think that there could be a whole multitude of other possibilities for the failure of the injectors with the most likely one being they just wore out.

I'm not trying to defend veg oil or say these things can't happen, it's just if there are problems I want to know what they really are and not be sidetracked by co-incidental occurrences and accounts that detract from the real problems that need to be addressed.

To me it would seem that if a cleaner were used in a fryer, once it was put in with a lot of oil, the water and caustic base would tend to drop out as the detergent mixing effect would only go so far. Any remaining dissolved water and cleaner would be in a small proportion after a decent settling period and without the presence of water if it were evaporated off, I'm not sure the caustic component would be active in the presence of water free oil.

I'LL be the first to admit this is just reasoning rather than fact but in the absence of any proof to the contrary, I'll believe the theory is at least possible.
I don't know if your friend settles his oil for any decent amount of time and dries it completely, (I have read people say their oil is dry if they only get a few bubbles or no crackles) but if he does, I'd go as far as to say on that alone that caustic in a batch of oil was not the cause of the problem.

If the oil were settled, at very least the water/ Caustic content would be greatly reduced and even if the above theory is flawed, the settling would have the effect of minimizing the effects of any cleaners in the oil and make it an issue only in the very long term and eliminate the possibility of a bad batch or two causing and catastrophic failure of fuel components.

There seem to be a whole myriad of problems that settling eliminates and greatly reduces that make my wonder why anyone wouldn't do it especially when it amounts to doing nothing. If one suspects there may be contaminants in the oil they can always wash it but I know of no one that has found that necessary here.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby tubular031 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:24 am

good point david. I know his injectors failed when they were pretty new (when the truck was much newer) I don't know how he came to the conclusion other then that is what he told me. This is why I am asking questions, because I don't know. To me, I would rather be safe then sorry.

When I was in full swing on making bio I read all kinds of stories where people did not wash enough and toasted injectors. I washed my bio beyond what was needed just because I am paranoid!

Hey sun- I think I am going to buy one of those cheap TDS meters and see what happens. Here is my thought, sample the water going in and get a number. then take some of the water and dump it into a small water bottle of my clean(ish) VO and give a little shake. Then test the water that falls out with the meter and compare. This should tell me how much, if any junk is in there right?
01 F350 CCLB SRW

Veggie conversion done!
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=623
tubular031
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Postby David » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:01 pm

tubular031 wrote:
When I was in full swing on making bio I read all kinds of stories where people did not wash enough and toasted injectors. I washed my bio beyond what was needed just because I am paranoid!


I think at some stage, with all the stories of Gloom and doom surrounding so many aspects of veg use and those that seem to have a particular fixation on certain problems that create the impression putting a drop of Veg near your engine is going to kill it stone dead, at some time we have all been paranoid and some people remain permanently so! :roll:

The TDS meter sounds a great idea. Perhaps it would be good to do a before and after test on the oil itself to see how much "cleaner" the washing makes the oil but I'm sure sun can tell you how to best check it.

You may want to test filtered oil so you are getting a reading for the dissolved cleaner and not reading particles.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby SunWizard » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:32 pm

tubular031 wrote:Hey sun- I think I am going to buy one of those cheap TDS meters and see what happens. Here is my thought, sample the water going in and get a number. then take some of the water and dump it into a small water bottle of my clean(ish) VO and give a little shake. Then test the water that falls out with the meter and compare. This should tell me how much, if any junk is in there right?

Yes thats about what I do, see the thread I linked above.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado


Return to Vegetable oil Collecting, Filtering and Dewatering

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests