wvo generator and biodiesel stove

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:52 pm

Georges, would you mind to describe why you believe the change from cast iron rings to stainless steel will make a difference ?


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Re: wvo generators

Postby coachgeo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:56 pm

georges wrote:You guys are really good, I am learning a lot tonight, first is that wvo works if it it use properly from coachgeo.....
They are reaching higher and higher sucess rates on WVO use in engines BUT.... thats in the auto world. Not as much intrest ( or at least less reporting of it) has occured in the genset world so we really do not know as much about that world. Due to that... we can only interperlate to Gensets info from what we have learned by what folk write in here and other boards about their findings on WVO use in autos.

I believe the person with the most genset experience and WVO is Dana Linscott who does not post here. He offers great advice but is somewhat limited on what advice he can offer publicly since he also has a company that consults about WVO use including power stations/gensets.
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wvo generator

Postby georges » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:06 pm

stainless steels show excellent wear resistance, corrosion resistance and heat resistance in comparison with cast iron rings and provide better compression that prevent knocking...
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Re: wvo generator

Postby coachgeo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:12 pm

georges wrote:stainless steels show excellent wear resistance, corrosion resistance and heat resistance in comparison with cast iron rings and provide better compression that prevent knocking...
is that what the manufactures claims are?

I'm suspicious about the quiter engine comment if it comes from the manufacture.
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:19 pm

coachgeo wrote:ok.... im confused lol. just re read the thread with the crossbones quotes etc.

In there (or something linked off of there) it was mentioned that you advance timing by retarding the pump... or something like that.

soooo which are we talking about.... when we talk timing? We need to be clear if we are speaking of what you physically do with the pump or what happens in the cylinder.

Another words.... do we retard the pump to produce a more advanced ignition point?

No. Mechanical ones you rotate to change the timing. How you rotate to advance depends on the pump.
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Re: wvo generator and biodiesel stove

Postby David » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:24 am

georges wrote:I installed it in my truck to make demonstration all over Miami, if you are ever around, just give me a call and I will schedule a time to make you a demonstration.


I was wondering what the motivation was for someone to be trying to involve more people to use an already difficult to get resource in many areas but then I see George is trying to up his sales of WVO.

I think George you are very misinformed in a lot of aspects of veg oil use which would make me worry about the effectiveness of any conversion kit you were offering.

The engines you are using I believe are very unsuited to long hours of constant running as would be experienced in a grid feed system. While coking may be an issue, I think you have greater potential problems to consider. My guess would be that coking in the engine you are using may in fact be less of a problem than on other types of engine. These engines being air cooled run hotter and faster which I am thinking would make them less likely to coke than slow speed water cooled engines that run cooler.
The hotter, faster engine is more resistant in my mind to allow the buildup of carbon in the critical areas of the rings and valves which would run at temps more likely to repel or burn off deposits.

In any case, coking problems could likely be overcome with something like a WI system.
I believe the big problem you face with constant use is you will wear one of these engines out in a matter of months but I certainly would be interested to see how you go with one if this is not the case. Bearings in the Alternator section may also be an issue unless replaced with a high quality sealed type or an open type is given good maintenance. If the alternator is a brushed type, these should be watched and checked for wear as well and a maintenance schedule for inspection and replacement be determined.

Before selling these engines, I would also test run a couple with good high hours to make sure they will not suffer from component fatigue. Despite some of these engines having balance shafts fitted, they also vibrate a lot which can cause brackets and supports to work harden, crack and fail.
I would check the manufacturers warranty carefully as most give a warranty expressed as months or hours run, whichever is greater.

You will do a lot of hours on a net metering setup so that would be the number to pay more attention to. You can get devices like tiny tachs which may be useful to fit in order to keep accurate records for the hours the engines have run. Some equipment manufacturers fit these hour meters in places where they cannot be seen or tampered with by the customers to keep check on hours run for warranty and maintenance purposes

The injector pumps on these engines are not at all like those on vehicles and offer very limited adjustment of the timing due to the design of the pump and the way it is actuated. On the plus side, the design makes them virtually impossible to break. They are easy to disassemble and clean but there really is nothing in them to break and I doubt if they would really suffer any detrimental wear either.

That said, if you are not getting any diesel knock, I would say that your pump is well out of adjustment as the engines I have of this type knock considerably. The delivery can be adjusted and I suggest you remove a couple of shims and see how you go from there. Make sure you replace the pump properly or the engine will either not start or you will have a run away which could damage the alternator section of your generator.

I also fail to see how piston rings of any type can affect the knock of the engine. The sound is a product of combustion not of anything mechanical.
While the SS rings may last longer, by being harder they may just transfer all the wear to the bore. Myself I rather have it the other way round because it is a lot easier to change the rings in an engine than have to get the thing re bored and fit oversize pistons as well as rings.

For a net metering system you will want to calculate the time the engines will need to run in order to repay the investment in the gen set, the cost of the metering setup and equipment and maintenance. Unless you are able to get a good rate on your feed power, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the numbers dont add up and you won't ever get to recouping the cost of your investment let alone make a profit from it.

I have never used one of these sets in this application but my experience with them does lead me to have severe reservations concerning the viability of what you are looking to do.
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wvo generator

Postby georges » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:26 am

It is unfortunate that none of you are around to examine this generator, take a good look at the video, it does not have a fuel pump from the diesel tank to the injector, it is gravity fed, the only fuel pump is the one pumping the wvo to the heating box line when it is in use.
Below are the specifications of that generator and hope that will answer some of the questions.
However, I have to say that I have learn a great deal from everyone and only time of heavy use will tell me and everyone else if this one is unique.
Meanwhile, it is working perfectly and hope it will for a long time, I have a 1 year warranty on it and I will certainly put a lot of hours with wvo and heavy use before the year is over.

Specification of 6.5kW Diesel Generator
Model KGE6500E
Type Brushless,self-exciting,2-poles,single phase
AC frequency(HZ) 50/60 PICK VOLTAGE
AC output voltage(V) 220;230;240;120/240 PICK VOLTAGE
Cont. AC output(KVA) 5.5
Max .AC output(KVA) 6.5
DC output(V/A) 12/8.3
Power factor(cos) 1.0
Engine model YM186FAE
Type Single-cylinder 4-stroke air cooled injection diesel
Displacement(cc) 418
Engine speed(rpm) 3000/3600
Starting System Electric
Max. power output(hp) 10
Fuel tank capacity(L) 11.5
Continues work(h) 6.5
Operating Noise Level (at 7m) 21 FT 78
DIM(LXMXH)(mm) 727X495X597
Net Weight(kg) 98
WITH WVO OPTION USA MIAMI
EXTRA FUEL FILTERS AND OIL INCLUDED
AND RINGS A HAND BOOK.
ON WHEELS WITH FOLDING HANDLE

WVO RECYCLED AND/OR VEGTABLE OIL OPTION
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Re: wvo generator

Postby BMW Fan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:30 am

georges wrote:stainless steels show excellent wear resistance, corrosion resistance and heat resistance in comparison with cast iron rings and provide better compression that prevent knocking...


The selection of piston rings is a science.
Piston, rings and cylinder wall…you are looking for the perfect union.
The characteristics of piston rings might be improved by applying coatings over the entire surface of the rings to achieve harder or just a different surface.
The rule for best performance of the rings is if three rings are used.
Do you know how many rings are used per piston ?
Again, there is no connection between Diesel knock and the type of rings.
Diesel knock is only influenced by the timing

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Last edited by BMW Fan on Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BMW Fan » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:52 am

I am a bit confused but if I look up my list then the Model KGE6500E has a gas engine.
The model KDE6500E has a diesel engine.
Anyway it is one of the many cheap Chinese mass products.
This type is not made for constant use. Neither the motor nor the engine will stand constant use.
I don’t know if you did the import yourself.
If not I can provide you the address of the manufacturer
( or one of them, because often there is more then one company producing the same type )

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Re: wvo generator

Postby David » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:59 am

georges wrote:It is unfortunate that none of you are around to examine this generator, take a good look at the video, it does not have a fuel pump from the diesel tank to the injector, it is gravity fed, the only fuel pump is the one pumping the wvo to the heating box line when it is in use.



The fuel pump I was talking about is the only one normally on these engines, The Injection pump. :roll:
That is the pump responsible for the timing and fuel delivery qty.

Meanwhile, it is working perfectly and hope it will for a long time, I have a 1 year warranty on it and I will certainly put a lot of hours with wvo and heavy use before the year is over.


How many hours do you have on your test engine so far? I get the impression it is not very many at all so one would expect it to work perfectly over short runs and low hours as they were designed for. If you can get a year at 8 or even 4 hours per day, I'll be very impressed ( and surprised) indeed.
If I were attempting to run such a set in the way you are hoping to do, I would be making sure oil changes were done very frequently and using synthetic oil to hedge my bets as much as possible. Then again, My guess is the generator bearing will be the first thing to fail rather than the engine itself.

I own a couple of these machines as well as several others including a German made Hatz and a horizontal Chinese single. The Hatz has over 2500 Hours on it. It is a totally different engine to the Chinese vertical singles which would really surprise me if they made 1000 Hours and major wear or failure before 500 Hours wouldn't surprise me either.

If you were familiar with engines in any way and had tore one of these Chinese singles down, you would really appreciate the reasons why any real endurance of these engines such as grid feed generation is unlikely.
You would be far better off with one of the slower revving Horizontal singles and coupling that to a proper ST type gen head.
Sure it won't be as cheap initially but I bet it would be cheaper than replacing the amount of sets you will need to do the same hours in the gen sets you are so keen on now. A 3000/3600 RPM air cooled motor is not the type to log up big hours especially when it is built as cheap as possible by the Chinese.

I am not experienced in grid feed systems ( but am putting together a setup for one ATM) but I believe the power companies require the power generated to be of a certain " Standard". I am not sure if the inverters/devices they supply correct the power generated, but if not, I would also think you are going to have a very tough time staying within the guidelines of the quality of the power output from one of these machines.

I can see you are an enthusiastic person George and appear to have have good intentions and motivations but I think your demonstrated lack of real knowledge of these machines and mechanics is going to see you become very disappointed through the inordinate amount of faith you have in these things.

I wish you all the best with your idea and I would be very happy for you to prove me wrong. Please keep us updated as you set your system up and let us know the hours you have run and any problems should they arise.
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wvo generator

Postby georges » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:19 pm

I am going to follow your advice on switching to synthetic oil next time I making my oil change.
I have to let you know that I run that generator about 4 hours per day 6 days per week and anyone can tell it is a diesel engine but it runs smoother than a regular gas engine.
I no longer use the power company in my warehouse since the only thing I have inside is pumps, filters and tanks of wvo, next month I will make the application for net metering and see what happen for the store.
My wife already warn me she does not want that noise humming all night where I live, I can use it home only during the hurricane season when we have power outage.
Meanwhile I am enjoying using this generator and learning lot from you guys while I did not receive an electric bill at the warehouse for the past 2 month.
Next I am going to order a kit they have made for generator that are over 20 KW to use on my 1998 Ford diesel for F350 to convert it to use wvo, at least I know once I install it in the truck, I have to increase the timing. If you have any other advice feel free to tell me.
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Postby John Galt » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:40 pm

A 3000/3600 RPM air cooled motor is not the type to log up big hours especially when it is built as cheap as possible by the Chinese.

exactly... These portable generators are designed for a market where they are used infrequently during power interruptions, for relatively short times, or purchased for use in disaster relief situations where they are run till they die then discarded.
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Postby David » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:19 pm

Perhaps myself and others are underestimating the durability of these engines?

I found the warranty information for My DEK F300 Aircooled Diesel Engine.
" Under normal use and service" ( whatever that constitutes), The engine was warranted for 12 months or 1500 operating hours. THis is more than what I would have thought it's service life to be.
Electrical components such as alternators ( and Pumps, there term, not mine!) are warranted for 1000 hours.

Gasoline engines are warranted for 1000 operating hours or 12 months, whichever comes first. This is certainly way longer than I would have anticipated these engines lasting for!!

I tried searching for expected engine life of these machines and regularly came across references for aircooled, 3600 Rpm diesels having a service life of 2-3000 Hours. Many of these references also estimated 1800 Rpm water cooled diesels to have an estimated life before overhaul of 20-30,000 hours.

I could find no actual accounts of these air cooled engines in use or any specific experiences of their service life.
2 things did seem to be noted that would have an effect on the amount of time these engines would run.
The first, being no surprise was the frequency and regularity of engine oil changes.
The second was of air filter quality and maintenance which makes sense. Replacing the Chines unknown quality element with a better or known efficiency unit may be a worthwhile investment from the start particularly if the machine is operated in dusty conditions.

Much is also mentioned of " Wet Stacking" which is when diesel engine running at less than 40% load ( on diesel Fuel) will coke up due to the engine over fueling due to the light load. Unlike a petrol engine, the mixture of the fuel is not varied on one of these small diesels, only the qty of fuel in relation to the RPM. when the load is light, the engine gets the same amount of fuel as what it does when it is loaded. This causes the engine to be overfueled at sustained periods of ligt loads and the excess fuel creates carbon build up.

This is mentioned as occurring on the injector tips but as this is referenced for Diesel not veg fuel, It can easily be extrapolated that when running on veg, SS piston rings are not going to help with deposits on valves, injectors or any other part of the cylinder.

In relation to alternators on these air cooled setups, It was frequently mentioned that the bearing would fail long before the engine and that could occur in as little as 500 hours. Most accounts I read seemed to be in agreement that it would happen by 1000 hours without doubt.

If a person were going to be selling these gen sets and promoting them for High hour use or grid feed. I would suggest it would be prudent to replace the original suspect quality Chinese bearing with a high quality one before the unit was given to the customer to save the expense and hassel of an almost certain warranty return. A savvy seller may even like to include a spare bearing to encourage customer replacement rather than sending the entire unit back and the related shipping expenses.

It seems that the estimated service life of these engines may be a lot more than is being anticipated here but then again, I couldn't find anything concrete to say it is or isn't. I still feel the hour estimates are optimistic and would like to see some first hand accounts that give a more reliable account of the true life expectancy of these engines.
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Postby BMW Fan » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:45 pm

David wrote:
I tried searching for expected engine life of these machines and regularly came across references for aircooled, 3600 Rpm diesels having a service life of 2-3000 Hours. Many of these references also estimated 1800 Rpm water cooled diesels to have an estimated life before overhaul of 20-30,000 hours.

I


24 hrs x 30 = 720 hrs / month

3000 : 720 = 4.16 month

a little math shows the trues


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Postby coachgeo » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:45 am

BMW Fan wrote:
David wrote:
... Many of these references also estimated 1800 Rpm water cooled diesels to have an estimated life before overhaul of 20-30,000 hours.

I


24 hrs x 30 = 720 hrs / month

3000 : 720 = 4.16 month

a little math shows the trues...
hmmmmm... is that last figure wrong?

30,000 :720 = 41.6 months

41.6 : 12 = 3.46yrs
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