wvo generator and biodiesel stove

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby BMW Fan » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:44 am

Well , Coach, your figure for the slower 1800 rpm , then yes, at least in theorie

But we are talking about georges 3600 rpm and aircooled.

Do you agree ?

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Postby David » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:01 am

In Fairness, I don't think george is talking about running the thing 24/7.
So far he has mentioned running it 4 hours a day, 6 days a week because his wife doesn't want it running all night where they live.
Apart from the fact these things are loud enough to wake the dead and drive the neighbors to turning up in a lynch mob with flaming Torches and pitchforks on the very first night the thing was run, I wonder why his Mrs doesn't want him to run it after hours?? :oops:

For net metering, I would take 8 hours day as a more realistic and practical figure but that is still going to put severe hours on the machine. these sort of hours are still going to be the 3K hours in one year...... If all goes well. It is likely at very least the generator head bearing would go in this time and I wonder what other " running repairs" would be needed? These things vibrate so bad I don't think they would do huge hours without shaking something loose or to destruction.

My Hatz engine has an oil change interval of 100 hours which would be every 2 weeks in this app. The oil fill is around 1L depending on the actual engine size and then one would certainly want to be checking the oil level at the beginning of each day.

The genny should be able to do around 132KwH per week at Georges current running time. Anyone know what the current net metering rate in Miami is? Also, to get net metering, does the energy generation source have to be a recognized renewable like solar or will they allow power from any source to be fed back into the grid?
Anyone know the setup costs in that area for net metering?
it would be good to get some idea of the payback to compare with the costs.

Having seen this discussed before, I have never seen anyone say that it was economical even with free veg fuel powering the generator.
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Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby coachgeo » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:32 am

BMW Fan wrote:Well , Coach, your figure for the slower 1800 rpm , then yes, at least in theorie

But we are talking about georges 3600 rpm and aircooled.

Do you agree ?

BMW Fan
Good point...

since you labled the responce as mathmatical evidence (fact) you got to state when and where you changed figures to theoretical.

Where did you get the 3000 figure you used?

Could see maybe 15000 (1800 rpm engine bumped up to 3600 is 2x figure so divide wear cycle by two for a 15000 figure.)


anyyyyywayyyyyyy.... I think Georges gets your/our point, that engine will not last as long as he appears to be thinking right now.

David's point is good too. The cost overall may be same as being on the grid.

BTW- I could swear Georges said he is NOT using the genny at his home at all. Only at his wearhouse.
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Postby BMW Fan » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:56 pm

No Coach I did not label anything and then changed it, that is utter nonsense.
I found DCS figures helpful .
So I took the highest figure, 3000 hrs and did the math showing what happens if someone would run 24 /7.
Not more , not less .
You compared apples and oranges and asked if my figures are wrong.
They are not.

I am not interested at all to discuss what happens if a 1800 rpm engine is bumped up to
3600 rpm.
WARNING: don’t do it , you blow up your engine instead of increasing the life span.
...and anyway the governor will not allow such a wide range without modification

It would be much more interesting to discuss the use of a 1800 rpm engine, the water cooled type and using the hot water for heating your house.
Instead of discussing things in theory which are completely worthless.
The known facts are that the thermal output of 6,5 KW generator is several times higher then the electrical output. So use the free heat and heat your house, hot water, whatever. Only then it is worse to run a generator and you may gain an advantage.
Using an air cooled generator will never make you any money.
It’s best to use this type of generator for emergencies.
For long time use the best option still are the old Lister type engines with the big flywheels. Nothing beats them if it comes to life span and return of money.
Ask your friend DL.

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Postby David » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:21 pm

coachgeo wrote:
Could see maybe 15000 (1800 rpm engine bumped up to 3600 is 2x figure so divide wear cycle by two for a 15000 figure.)


Not at all sure what you mean by this.
I take it you don't mean to run an engine at double it's rated speed becaue that would be ridiculous.

If you are implying one could run the genny at half speed to get double the life span, that won't work on the type of gen George is talking about either.
The speed of the engine controls the frequency of the output ( for the most part) and running the engine at half speed would probably cause the grid feed controller to disconnect the genny as it would sense the power was out of range for what could be fed back into the utility lines.

If one were using an oversize engine and running it at lower revs and had it " geared" accordingly to the gen head such as with belts and pulleys, then the engine could be slowed but the alternator still driven at the correct speed needed in order to get the proper frequency output.

That said, there are a lot of other considerations to be taken into account such as the wet stacking problem and cylinder glazeing. A lot of extra life can be gained from an engine by under driving it but it needn't be by half its rated speed.
500-1000 RPM's under max rated speed can make a big difference to both life span and fuel consumption although there is a Sweet spot for both and under or over this will have the opposite desired effect.

While there are many tweaks and ways of improving the life and efficiency of engines and generators, the sort of machine george is so keen on using is very limited due to it being designed for a totally different application to what he is intending to use it for.

AS BMW says, the most suitable setup for what george wants would be to use a Lister CS type engine ( clone) which would use a separate gen head. These slow speed, quiet and incredibly reliable engines can easily digest veg fuels and there are plenty of reports and instances of them doing that on Google and You tube.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby BMW Fan » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:31 pm

I couldn’t figure were I had seen a similar claim for replaced piston rings before. The word acidity of oil triggered my memory.

....on this forum under Classified Ads on November 02,2008

The text :

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: WVO generators

Available from 5.5 kw to 125 kw WVO or SVO generators. These generators are specially built to handle vegetable oil, they have two tanks, the piston rings have been replaced with ceramic and the hoses are synthetic to handle the acidity of the oil.
If interested contact me at: borsalino12000@yahoo.com


Then georges claims that the piston rings were replaced with ceramics.
I hope georges comes back and may let us know about his experience with ceramic rings?
Must be a reason why he changed to stainless steel already .

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Postby coachgeo » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:38 pm

David wrote:
coachgeo wrote:
Could see maybe 15000 (1800 rpm engine bumped up to 3600 is 2x figure so divide wear cycle by two for a 15000 figure.)


Not at all sure what you mean by this.
I take it you don't mean to run an engine at double it's rated speed becaue that would be ridiculous.....
You guys are reading to much into it.

1800 rpm motor was the base of the figures used. but compared to a motor that is actually OEM at 3600... Thus my point was only that if your going to use those figures then halfing the maintainance hours (since rpms are twice as much) might be a logical way to do it. Have yet to see where the 3000 figure came from. 30,000 is what was quoted.

Don't really care though... not here to argue exact mathmaticalness of it. Like I said earlier..... the point was the engine may not last as long as Georges was thinking and I think we got that point across just fine.
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Postby coachgeo » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:43 pm

BMW Fan wrote:... I took the highest figure, 3000 hrs ...
We must be looking at different figures. The highest hour figure I saw (and bolded in my message) was 30,000 NOT 3,000
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Postby David » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:42 pm

David wrote:
I tried searching for expected engine life of these machines and regularly came across references for aircooled, 3600 Rpm diesels having a service life of 2-3000 Hours.

Many of these references also estimated 1800 Rpm water cooled diesels to have an estimated life before overhaul of 20-30,000 hours.


There is the invisible 3000 hours number, the highest I found quoted for a 3600RPM aircooled Diesel.

I hope that puts the mystery to rest.

I see george has also placed the same original post on infopop. Can't help but wonder if he is looking for a more "agreeable" and supportive audience.

I would genuinely like to know what sort of hours he manages on his genny but I have to say I think enthusiasm and pride may get in the way of clear facts.
After running one of my aircooled Diesels for some time yesterday, I'm wondering if the life of the engine in his warehouse may meet its' end by some person driven nuts by the noise taking to it with a sledge hammer or using it for .50 Cal target practice.

These same units are offered as " Silent Type" generators and just packaged in an enclosure. The Db ratings are still above that of the " Industrial" grade Hondas with no noise suppression at all.
I have read people saying the Term Silent is applicable if you are a mile or more away from the machines or are wearing ear plugs as well as ear muffs if you are any closer!

I have my engine running at about 2500 Rpm and the noise is still irritating and damned annoying. At 3600 RPM for hours on end, it would be beyond the threshold of tolerance and I'm pretty sure, the fatigue resistance of the metals they are made from! :oops: :shock:

My Hatz unit is far quieter and the noise it does emit is far less " Grating" than the Chinese engines. It also seems much better balanced and doesn't try to walk away like the Chinese engines even though the frames have rubber feet on them and the Hatz is just mounted to a steel plate.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby coachgeo » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:26 am

David wrote:
David wrote:
I tried searching for expected engine life of these machines and regularly came across references for aircooled, 3600 Rpm diesels having a service life of 2-3000 Hours.

Many of these references also estimated 1800 Rpm water cooled diesels to have an estimated life before overhaul of 20-30,000 hours.


There is the invisible 3000 hours number,...
ahhhhh there's the 3000. That quote was not given in the orginal post, but a 30000 was.. thus my confusion. Thanx

By the way. he is Georges and I'm George (Coachgeo= Coach George), just to add to the confusion[/i]
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Postby David » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:32 am

Just wondering if Georges is still looking in here at all and if so, How is your generator going?

Have you been keeping a Log of the running hours and if so, what are you up to now?
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

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