New Manual Valve Idea

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:55 pm

I sorta thought you must have meant something else, but you did say "AFTER" the IP.

It's nice to see that you didn't simply edit your last post. I edit my posts, but usually only do that immediately after posting, well before discussing the text of the post with others.

Anyway, I also thought about some sort of bubble catcher. I think a T fitting installed upside down (with the vertical stem pointing up) somewhere near the IP would be a good option. The vertical hose barb would have a short chunk (3" or 4") of clear high temp hose sticking up. A simple ball valve at the top of the clear tubing would be used for bleeding off built up air bubbles from the system. If an electric lift pump were installed, the ball valve could be opened and the pump circuit would be given a very short jolt to displace the built up air pocket (the valve would be closed again after. If the system lacked an electric lift pump, the ball valve would have a larger diameter hole and a small funnel could be used to pour veggie into the valve to eliminate the air pocket.
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Check Valves

Postby will » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:50 am

Where is everyone getting their check valves? Sun Wizard, you mentioned some brass check valves...are you just getting these at a local hardware store or is there a source of fuel specific Check Valves?

thanks

Will
1977 Mercedes 300D
1979 Mercedes 240D 60,000 WVO KM
1997 VW Golf GL 1.9TD 30,000 WVO KM
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Re: Check Valves

Postby VegMeister » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:21 am

[quote="will"]Where is everyone getting their check valves? Sun Wizard, you mentioned some brass check valves...are you just getting these at a local hardware store or is there a source of fuel specific Check Valves?/quote]

I checked tonight at a couple hardware stores: they didn't have anything smaller than a 3/4" check valve. But you may not need one: try blowing through the pump backwards (with your mouth) and if you can't (but you can forwards) then there's a built-in check valve on the pump.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
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Postby Welder » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:15 am

View pages 462-465 here:

http://www.mcmaster.com/
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:21 am

You want a low cracking pressure check valve like 7775K12 at mcmaster. Or use 7775K52 with viton seat if you are going to run Bio through it.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Thanks For the Info...

Postby will » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:25 am

But McMaster has refused me shipment to Canada in the past. I'll try them again but any more sources?

Will
1977 Mercedes 300D
1979 Mercedes 240D 60,000 WVO KM
1997 VW Golf GL 1.9TD 30,000 WVO KM
will
 
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Postby Radrick » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:50 pm

Vegmiester does your truck have a factory electric pump and if so are you using that for your pump or an aftermarket one? I am working on getting my truck mechanically ready for WVO, i have a couple of things to do yet, but in the mean time I keep reading new idea's on system configurations. I had the system i plan on installing figured out but it keeps getting changed when i hear this new stuff. This setup sounds very interesting.
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Re: New Manual Valve Idea

Postby Radrick » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:05 pm

VegMeister wrote:Hey guys I have this idea in my head but I've never seen in described anywhere else:

Image

Will this work? This seems to be a perfect setup for me, as I don't mind having a small ball valve mounted at the base of my shifter. Is the check valve even needed? I've heard check valves don't work for veg oil but in my system it's only on the diesel side of things.


I think this is a great system, nothing to fail. Does anyone have a system running without a threeway on the feed side? I think i will try to run mine like this but I want to add two things. 1. I want to have an alarm that sounds if the truck is shut off in wvo mode. I can do this by using setting up the alarm to sound if the ignition is off and the wvo pump switch is on. 2. I am planning on installing an electric inline fuel heater on my diesel line just before the ip to heat the diesel to between 80f and 100f. Do to the very cold climate here and the ip failures that have been experianced by others with the same pump as i have during cold weather switchovers. I would run this heater with a momentary switch and use my fuel temp gauge to monitor the temp just before the switchover. this would only be needed for switchovers below 20f. Does that make sense?
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:06 pm

Makes sense in theory but not in reality. Even the largest inline electric heater, a vegetherm mega, when its 0F outside, would only heat your VO to 30-40F, and thats if you have a looped return on diesel. Which is unusual since diesel is usually returned to tank and would make the temp even lower. See this thread for the calculations:
Electric (vegtherm or other) versus coolant heat FPHE

A better option is to run your diesel through the same FPHE you use to heat your VO. Then your diesel and your IP slowly increases in temperature as the coolant warms up.
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby VegMeister » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:07 pm

Radrick wrote:Vegmiester does your truck have a factory electric pump and if so are you using that for your pump or an aftermarket one? I am working on getting my truck mechanically ready for WVO, i have a couple of things to do yet, but in the mean time I keep reading new idea's on system configurations. I had the system i plan on installing figured out but it keeps getting changed when i hear this new stuff. This setup sounds very interesting.


Radrick: yes it has a factory electric pump, with a built-in check valve. Just like your truck.

This is actually a great idea: as I install everything on the truck, it seems more and more economical and everything "just fits" in my truck. As it is, I'm not going to have ANY valves in the cab, everything is going to be manually controlled from my lower dash, and only 1 fuel line and 2 heater lines will be running under the carpet of my cab. Of course I haven't tried running fuel through it but by noon tomorrow I should have everything installed, running and I'll take some pictures. It was like someone designed these GM trucks to be modified like this!
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
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Location: Pembine, WI

Postby Radrick » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:33 am

SunWizard wrote:Makes sense in theory but not in reality. Even the largest inline electric heater, a vegetherm mega, when its 0F outside, would only heat your VO to 30-40F, and thats if you have a looped return on diesel. Which is unusual since diesel is usually returned to tank and would make the temp even lower. See this thread for the calculations:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35

A better option is to run your diesel through the same FPHE you use to heat your VO. Then your diesel and your IP slowly increases in temperature as the coolant warms up.


How would i do this and not have the diesel heated in the summer or when i am just running diesel? I supose i could add anouther three way valve that would be diesel in, diesel out to FPHE, diesel out to IP. I could leave it in FPHE mode most of the time it would just make my switchover slower. How much slower do you think this would make the switchover? I think i probubly answered my first question. Just thinking out loud. :roll:
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:57 am

You could put a ball valve on the coolant that feeds the FPHE and anything on the VO side and turn it off when you want to run diesel only. Thats how I did it, but in 2 years have never used it since I like VO so much I never ran diesel once warmed up.

Its good on warm up in summer to heat the diesel so your IP is closer to 160F before you switch to 160F VO. Many are doing this who have the stanadyne IP. Adding 2%VO or Bio to your diesel tank solves concerns about lubricity.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Postby Radrick » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:29 pm

SunWizard wrote:You could put a ball valve on the coolant that feeds the FPHE and anything on the VO side and turn it off when you want to run diesel only. Thats how I did it, but in 2 years have never used it since I like VO so much I never ran diesel once warmed up.

Its good on warm up in summer to heat the diesel so your IP is closer to 160F before you switch to 160F VO. Many are doing this who have the stanadyne IP. Adding 2%VO or Bio to your diesel tank solves concerns about lubricity.


I will be going on some trips that will probobly require a small amount of diesel do to talk size limits. I may work on bio in the future so that I can fill my stock tank with that instead of $4 diesel.
I am planning on only heating the ip to between 80f and 100f I don't think the small delta T between the vo at 160f and the ip housing at 100f will cause the vo to drop more than 10f at the flow rate it is moving threw at since heat transfer is a curve that gets pretty flat as the delta T gets small.
I was also thinking about a section of HOH on the diesel line with a shutoff on the coolant. I wonder how much HOH i would need if it was constructed with both hoses being metalic not rubber. More calcs :x .
1995 Chevy K1500 6.5 TD not on WVO yet but soon.
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Re: Thanks For the Info...

Postby Welder » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:37 am

will wrote:But McMaster has refused me shipment to Canada in the past. I'll try them again but any more sources?

Will


I've got at least 3 Infopoop members that will ship stuff from USA up to me. If you want, when I order my parts you can tuck your order in with mine.
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Postby VegMeister » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:52 am

Ok system is totally installed and fully functional. Everything seems to work fine.

After working with this "hands on" I've realized that the idea of positive pressure is VERY important to my T. Whichever side has positive pressure will have flow, the side that has less will NOT have flow. Case in point: if I'm running on veg, with my veg pump pumping, then I will NOT draw any diesel from the tank (this is my experience, after driving around (on veg) with at tank on E and still having the same amount of fuel (1-2 gallons) afterwards. However, there is nothing STOPPING the IP from sucking fuel from the diesel tank. In fact, if the veg pump stops, then the IP will suck fuel from the diesel tank. This is my experience from 3 months ago why my lift pump failed.

Second thing I noticed: even with 20 gallons in my veg tank there was NO positive pressure on the veg system (I discovered this when I was disassembling my filter after finding leaks) with the veg pump turned off. What I mean is, I could pull the line off and there was NO fuel flowing out. In order to prime it in fact I had to turn my veg pump on for a few seconds before cranking the engine.

Does this mean that the ball valve is not needed? When running in purge mode, the fuel being supplied to the IP is for sure coming from the diesel pump.

I guess what it boils down to is this: what kind of pressure is coming from the return line? and when it Ts into the veg line, which way does it want to go? will it try to push through the FPHE and veg filter, and then back into the system? Or would it dump to the tank? If it would dump to the tank (even without needing to close the ball valve) then operation of my system would be just that much simpler.

Another question: is there a problem with prematurely switching the return back to the diesel tank (after changing back to diesel)? What is really the harm in having a few cups of veg oil (my oil is nice, liquid at -10F) mixed in with my diesel? Wouldn't it simply help the lubricity of the fuel, since it's mixed in at less than 1% of the diesel mixture?


Thanks for all the help guys, it's great to be running on veg, the engine is LOVING it, everything is working great.
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
VegMeister
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Pembine, WI

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