Need advice on heated injector lines

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Need advice on heated injector lines

Postby penguy » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:39 pm

I could use some outside input on heating my injector lines on my '97 Cummins.

SunWizard do you supply electric heat to your injector lines? I have read everything I could about the subject and don't know which way to go. We are on the road in FL and I have all the stuff to heat the lines. I used a Harbor Freight Infared temp sensor and got readings various reading between 180 to 200 F on the actual injectors.

Obviously I do not want coking problems with cold or cool VO. I also do not want polymerization problems by over heating the injecdtor lines.

By the way I replaced the stock thermostat and put the Napa unit in, 190-195 F. My temp guage is metric but it frequently reads up to 95 C degrees. Always at or above 90 C.

I have .035 SS wire to use as a heater. Looking at the routing of the injector lines I am less than enthusiastic about attaching a 30 inch heater to the lines.

What do you think?

Thanks for your help.
Dana
1997 Dodge, 2 tank sys, SunWizard Model
2000 Jetta TDI waiting for conversion
1980 Silver Eagle, DD6V92 waiting
6/1 Listeroid just loafing
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:57 pm

I have no heat on my injector lines. I have not been convinced its worth it. Slight emission benefits is all I have seen documented. My VO always comes out of my FPHE at 160-180F, and gets heated higher by the IP and injectors. I think a FPHE is enough, and you shouldn't be switching to VO before your engine is warmed up so line heaters don't make that any quicker.

Although I don't think they are harmful, they sure look like a mess on every one I have seen.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby John Galt » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:43 pm

Injection Line heaters can be of benefit in a single tank blended fuel system, to improve the combustion of the fuel at start-up. On a two tank diesel purge/start system with a FPHE they will be of minor benefit if the glowplug/glowscreen system is working correctly for clean starts.
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Postby 240Volvo » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:29 pm

I agree with John, though I understand that (at least conceptually) the added heat at the injectors makes for a finer spray with diesel, as well. A finer spray should lead to more complete combustion, regardless of the fuel.
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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Heated injector lines

Postby penguy » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:24 pm

Thanks to all who replied. I really did not want to put them on, certainly not right now.

I have not been switching over to VO until the engine temp came all the way up to normal opns.

Thanks again for your help. In the next week or so I will report on how the next couple thousand miles go. We leave FL for AZ on Wed.
Dana
1997 Dodge, 2 tank sys, SunWizard Model
2000 Jetta TDI waiting for conversion
1980 Silver Eagle, DD6V92 waiting
6/1 Listeroid just loafing
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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:11 am

On a 2 tank system, I like the idea of using a FPHE to warm both the veg AND the start/stop fuel (B100 or a bio/ULSD blend). That way, the IP would be gradually warmed up by the rise in coolant from start up. That would also preheat the injector lines, not just the IP.

While preheating the IP may not be as much of an issue with an in-line IP, some fairly experiencedhttp: SVO greasers have had rotary IP failure that they feel were attributed from an inadequately warmed IP sinking too much heat out of their veggie at switchover. As I said, preheating the IP by heating all fuels with a FPHE will also have the added benefit of pre-heating the injector lines as well. This may may be synergistic when combining that approach with insulating the lines to hold in the heat better.

I still haven't done my conversion yet (slowly getting closer though), but when I do, if I were to use injection line heaters, I'd like to use these ones:

www.dieselveg.com/injection_pipe_heating.htm

Maybe even combining line heaters with insulation might be a good option in an extremely cold climate. Having two sets of line heaters with one set installed at the lines as they exit the IP and the other set at the injectors might also be a good extreme cold option. Insulation could be added to that set up as well.
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Postby BMW Fan » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:34 am

The induction heaters Welder mentions are developed for 4 cylinder engines by an Austrian company.
Be aware of that before buying and do your own search first.
The length of wires you get might not be sufficient enough for 6 or even 8 cylinder engines.
Aside that they are the best injection line heaters available if you are not shopping for the cheapest solution.
They cost more than some people are willing to spend for their veggie car.
Efficiency tests can be found on the website.
Installation instructions, too.

If somebody is seriously interested I am able to arrange for a special price for one " TEST" set.

BMW Fan
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Postby Welder » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:50 am

Thanks for the info Klaus. I wonder if they make any larger 8 cylinder units?
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:47 am

No Jeff, they don't and they have no intention to do so.
There are not enough 8 cylinder Diesel in Europe and very few Pick Up trucks. It's a different world with different needs.
Their advice...very logic :) ...buy two sets. :lol:
I just repeat what I was told.


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injector line heaters

Postby sacveggieguy » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:05 pm

Hi to all,

I purchased material to make my own inj line heaters and have lots of material left and will make some for anyone who wants some for 20 bucks each plus shipping. Double that for v8 applications. These are for nichrome type line heaters can be used for startup only or 4 heating prior to injection. Iv had good luck with them really help in the winter on cold startups, leave em on till coolant gets hot it depends on your system.

Thanks Paul aka Sacveggieguy
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:45 pm

Hi Paul,
is it possible to get some real world data from you ?
Temperature increase....amperage drawn, less smoke...etc.
As you know there are at least 4 people selling.
All claim success and improved start up behavior.
None has any data available and you are my best hope now ?
I tried to test the most “advanced “ product but they fell apart producing nice sparks and I could not finish the test. I had very good results by just insulating the fuel injector lines.

BMW Fan
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line heater testing

Postby sacveggieguy » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:01 pm

Hi Beemer,

I dont have too much scientific testing but heres what I have the line heaters draw 8 amps approx 100 watts. The injector lines on my benz reached 195 degrees after a few mins its difficult spot to measure as the lines are steel then they go into the injectors, but the inside dia of the fuel lines are very small so I think the fuel inside heats up pretty quick. Im going to try making another type of heater using some fuel line and using one of the line heaters wrapped around it, that I can measure the temp of the fuel going into it and out of it. Iv had no problems of my lines coming apart. How were yours made? Were they wrapped with silicone tape? and what kind of car?

Thanks Paul
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Postby BMW Fan » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:51 am

Hi,

the ones I tried to test were from " D ".
$ 12.00 a piece for a 6 cylinder BMW 524 td.
Crimping seems to be their problem or workmanship.
If you just measure the line without flow I do believe your numbers.
No doubt at all.
Do a test with flow and you get a very different picture.
I look forward to see your test results. Good luck.

BMW Fan

PS: I was hoping to get some results from 240 Volvo ???
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Postby Welder » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:05 am

BMW Fan wrote:Hi Paul,
is it possible to get some real world data from you ?
Temperature increase....amperage drawn, less smoke...etc.
As you know there are at least 4 people selling.
All claim success and improved start up behavior.
None has any data available and you are my best hope now ?
I tried to test the most “advanced “ product but they fell apart producing nice sparks and I could not finish the test. I had very good results by just insulating the fuel injector lines.

BMW Fan


"I had very good results from just insulating the fuel injector lines."

That's what I think would be the best. Insulating the lines draws no extra electricity, and can't ever short out. Insulation would be much cheaper than the cheapest inj line heaters too.
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
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Postby 240Volvo » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:44 am

Just wondering if an easier way to measure the change in temperature brought about by the ILHs would be to measure the temperature of the return line to the IP on a cold start without the ILH, and then on a cold start with the ILH, maybe at 2 minutes after starting. Might be less trouble than trying to probe the fuel flow itself under pressure.

I recently added the ILHs from "D," and I did not use the connectors between the ILH and wiring harness supplied with the kit for crimping. My mechanic suggested that using connectors that could be disconnected (those that were supplied could not be) would be better for future servicing of the injectors and IP, should it be necessary. I don't know if that addresses the problem that you experienced, Klaus, or perhaps the build is better now. The wires for the ILHs are very small gauge, and I have no experience with this type of material to make any comparisons.

When I have had occasion to have a cold start after hours with the car out in <20F, the car starts much better and runs better than it did before. So it does help to some degree. Of course, that is anecdotal and not scientific.

That said, it would be great to have another, more sturdy (and it seems more powerful), product available to those who want it. Any testing that can demonstrate the change that they can bring to the process will be very welcome.
1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.
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