Siphon nozzle for WVO woodstove drip upgrade

Space Heating with SVO WVO Vegetable Oil Biofuel.

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Postby SunWizard » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:49 pm

powerstroke73L wrote:How big of a hole would it need to be and are the threads NPT or another type? Would it work to thread the nozzle into the wall of the firebox or does it need to be further in?

The nozzle screws into the adapter shown in the diagram and pics above, its 3/4" hex. It doesn't need to go in very far, just so its spray tip is inside. Put it inside an air inlet for a better, cleaner burn.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby powerstroke73L » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:49 am

SunWizard wrote:
powerstroke73L wrote:How big of a hole would it need to be and are the threads NPT or another type? Would it work to thread the nozzle into the wall of the firebox or does it need to be further in?

The nozzle screws into the adapter shown in the diagram and pics above, its 3/4" hex. It doesn't need to go in very far, just so its spray tip is inside. Put it inside an air inlet for a better, cleaner burn.


I took a second look and now I get it. My furnace is a much different style than yours though, so I may have to drill anyway. Not a huge deal. I was looking at this compressor which will deliver 0.5 CFM, but at 20 PSI-will that be too much pressure?
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:18 pm

powerstroke73L wrote:I was looking at this compressor which will deliver 0.5 CFM, but at 20 PSI-will that be too much pressure?

Yes thats way too much, but it has a pressure regulator so you could set it at the needed 5 psi. But it doesn't state the flow. The drawbacks are it draws 2x more power than mine, and it might cycle on and off which wears it out more and may cause variation in the flame size. The best is 5 psi and 0.5 cfm for the nozzle I use.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
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Postby powerstroke73L » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:42 pm

SunWizard wrote:
powerstroke73L wrote:I was looking at this compressor which will deliver 0.5 CFM, but at 20 PSI-will that be too much pressure?

Yes thats way too much, but it has a pressure regulator so you could set it at the needed 5 psi. But it doesn't state the flow. The drawbacks are it draws 2x more power than mine, and it might cycle on and off which wears it out more and may cause variation in the flame size. The best is 5 psi and 0.5 cfm for the nozzle I use.


Where did you get yours? I wonder if an aquarium bubbler would work?

http://www.marinedepot.com/Dolphin_Air_ ... SI-vi.html
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:44 pm

No that one is 0.08 cfm. For aquarium pumps, this one looks about right:
http://www.marinedepot.com/Coralife_Luft_Pump_Single_Output_Adjustable_Flow_Plug_In_Air_Pumps-Coralife-ES01655-FIARPIAFSO-vi.html

I got mine on ebay for $45 (new), here is the same one for more $:
thomas pump

This is a much better industrial grade pump than the harbor freight one, or the aquarium pumps. Mine is rated to last 25,000 hours (7 years of 10 hours a day) before a simple rebuild.

Here is another thats close to mine for $79 free shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Thomas-Compressor-Motor-/190442853071?pt=BI_Air_Compressors&hash=item2c574752cf
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
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Postby powerstroke73L » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:43 pm

SunWizard wrote:No that one is 0.08 cfm. For aquarium pumps, this one looks about right:
http://www.marinedepot.com/Coralife_Luft_Pump_Single_Output_Adjustable_Flow_Plug_In_Air_Pumps-Coralife-ES01655-FIARPIAFSO-vi.html

I got mine on ebay for $45 (new), here is the same one for more $:
thomas pump

This is a much better industrial grade pump than the harbor freight one, or the aquarium pumps. Mine is rated to last 25,000 hours (7 years of 10 hours a day) before a simple rebuild.

Here is another thats close to mine for $79 free shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Thomas-Compressor-Motor-/190442853071?pt=BI_Air_Compressors&hash=item2c574752cf


Thanks for the suggestions-I actually did some poking around with the part number on Google and found a scientific/industrial surplus outlet that had them for $35:

http://www.herbach.com/Merchant2/mercha ... Code=PUMPS

$46 shipped to my door in two days (the company is in-state)-I should be up and running by the end of the week. I have about 2 cords of seasoned wood left for this year (4 cords in the shed for next year) and if my calculations are correct the 330 gallons I have should get us through to the spring. Not a bad deal! Sun I appreciate the assistance with the parts-I'm a pretty mechanically inclined person, but sometimes the specs make my head spin. Had you not posted a link to that pump I would have driven myself nuts trying to find the right one, or worse yet, bought one new from Grainger for $300 ;)
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Postby canolafunola » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:00 pm

SunWizard wrote:I solved the issue of it slowly going out after a few hours. I tested by heating the copper SVO feed line for a few seconds with a propane torch, and it made a much larger flame. With my IR thermometer I determined its mostly the temp of the nozzle block that determines how big a flame, and it was getting too cool which lowered the flow, which lowered the flame, etc. The hotter it gets, the lower the SVO viscosity, and the bigger the flame. I shortened the 1/4 feed line for less heat loss, and I enlarged the opening in the stove so I can adjust how far the nozzle is protruding inside the firebox. This gives me a good control of the temp of it, and the size of the flame. This works much better now and I have a wide range of firing rates where it burns with a consistent flame size over hours.


Hi Sunwizard,

Have you tried feeding the nozzle (instead of siphon) with an adjustable speed metering pump? This way you can control exactly how much fuel is being injected and not worry about visicosity. Does it ever flame out when the wood coal is gone? What is the lowest fuel consumption you can burn at without worry of a flameout? Also, what safety do you have in case of a flameout to shut the pump off and stop the oil feed?
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Postby SunWizard » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:33 pm

canolafunola wrote:Have you tried feeding the nozzle (instead of siphon) with an adjustable speed metering pump? This way you can control exactly how much fuel is being injected and not worry about visicosity.

No I have it working great with a consistent flame size without that added complexity.
Does it ever flame out when the wood coal is gone?

No I often run it for all day after any wood coal is gone.
What is the lowest fuel consumption you can burn at without worry of a flameout?

.2 gph is the lowest I run at, since lower than that it can slowly decline in output over hours, and the flame doesn't burn as clean. I could change the layout of the plumbing to prevent that with more heat to the feed pipe and nozzle, but I don't think its worth running the air pump for lower heat than that anyway.
Also, what safety do you have in case of a flameout to shut the pump off and stop the oil feed?

Nothing but I've never had a flameout in many months of running. Its a remarkably strong and stable flame, unless I go to extremely low flow <0.1gph and a flame <3" long. I haven't even had the nozzle plug in many hundreds of running hours. A nozzle plug would stop the flame and the flow so that would be safe.

There is no oil feed pump just an air pump, so no problem if air keeps running. When testing extreme low flows, and I did flameout, it would simply spray on the ashes and make white smoke up the chimney, then stop spraying within a few minutes since the feed and nozzle cools quickly to where the thick PHO solidifies in the nozzle.

If you had a metering pump or pressure on the SVO, plus a design with unstable flame which could flameout, you would want a device to stop it spraying. One from an oil furnace would work, and is what they use on the commercial burners that use this same nozzle. But that adds electronics, sensors, solenoids, and far more cost and complexity and power draw.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby canolafunola » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:04 am

No I often run it for all day after any wood coal is gone.


Are you firing into the open space of the fire box or have you built a heat retention device in the firebox to fire into?

.2 gph is the lowest I run at, since lower than that it can slowly decline in output over hours, and the flame doesn't burn as clean. I could change the layout of the plumbing to prevent that with more heat to the feed pipe and nozzle, but I don't think its worth running the air pump for lower heat than that anyway.


Are you controlling the flame size with just the needle valve, or needle valve plus varying the air pressure? How are you adjusting the amount of incoming air? Are the open air inlet holes around the nozzle providing the correct amount of air for all burn rates?

Nothing but I've never had a flameout in many months of running. Its a remarkably strong and stable flame, unless I go to extremely low flow <0.1gph and a flame <3" long. I haven't even had the nozzle plug in many hundreds of running hours. A nozzle plug would stop the flame and the flow so that would be safe.

There is no oil feed pump just an air pump, so no problem if air keeps running. When testing extreme low flows, and I did flameout, it would simply spray on the ashes and make white smoke up the chimney, then stop spraying within a few minutes since the feed and nozzle cools quickly to where the thick PHO solidifies in the nozzle.


So your safety is in using PHO? That's neat! If it were not PHO, it will continue to spray oil and depending on how big the tank is, overflow out the woodstove?

Do you run your current configuration unattended?
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:26 am

canolafunola wrote:Are you firing into the open space of the fire box or have you built a heat retention device in the firebox to fire into?

Large open space but its firebrick lined which retains heat. The ashes and sometimes the bricks glow orange. For the higher flow rates around 0.8 gph you need a large space and good firebricks since the flame is about 3' long and extremely hot, it hurts my eyes to look at it.
Are you controlling the flame size with just the needle valve, or needle valve plus varying the air pressure? How are you adjusting the amount of incoming air? Are the open air inlet holes around the nozzle providing the correct amount of air for all burn rates?

Needle valve only, air pump is always the same small flow. The 2- 3" diameter air inlet holes allow enough air for all burn rates. I don't adjust that since I played with adjusting it and it made no difference.

So your safety is in using PHO? That's neat!

Yes that makes it extra safe. The main safety is that it never flames out.
If it were not PHO, it will continue to spray oil and depending on how big the tank is, overflow out the woodstove?

Yes but its easy to run so it never flames out. The only way I can get a flameout is to set the flow so low that its almost shut off and would take hours after a flameout before it was enough to be a mess (without PHO.)
Do you run your current configuration unattended?

Yes but not when I am gone from the home since I don't need the heat then. It can run all day without even looking at it and no adjusting needed which is something I like compared to wood burning or my old drip burner. Even burning wood is dangerous enough I never do it when not home.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby canolafunola » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:15 pm

Thanx 4 the detailed answers.. Have you had a very windy day with no coals and no flameouts?
What model is your stove? It has a glass frontn? Does burning VO muck it up? How about some pics with a 3" and 3' flame?
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:42 pm

canolafunola wrote:Thanx 4 the detailed answers.. Have you had a very windy day with no coals and no flameouts?

Yes up to 80 mph wind made no difference. I have a 16' tall 6" diameter chimney on it so it always draws strong with no backdraft. Hours after the fire has gone out, due to the SVO flame, the top layer of ashes from fires weeks ago still glow orange and act as coals would.
What model is your stove?

Sierra. I got it for free on craigslist, its old and nothing special.
It has a glass frontn?

Yes.
Does burning VO muck it up?

No it burns far cleaner than wood. It has some small air inlets at the bottom of the window that keep it mostly clean on wood or SVO. A few weeks of SVO burning removed a large amount of built up deposits on the window and chimney and all parts.
How about some pics with a 3" and 3' flame?

I tried flame pics and they don't work out, probably due to the huge contrast between the dark firebox and the intense hot flame.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby powerstroke73L » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:16 am

Interesting discussion. I had this plate fabricated to replace the 9" x 9" square glass window in my furnace door:

Image

It's a piece of 1/4" plate (the glass is just shy of 1/4" thick) exactly the same size as the glass with a 1" hole punched in it. The 3/4" x 3/4" angle provides a mounting point for the nozzle-I'm currently using a small C-clamp to hold it in place. Here is what the plate looks like mounted in the furnace:

Image

The catch is that now I'm having issues with the nozzle. I had to replace the nozzle itself because I had mounted the first one I bought inside the furnace. This worked fine for a while until the nozzle got so hot that the o-ring inside melted, clogging the fuel passages. After failing to clear it I bought a new one and incorporated it into the new design. For some reason the spray is very inconsistent now even with the new nozzle and I can't get it to light off. I'm wondering if there's also some sort of clog in the adapter. I'm going to soak it in carburetor cleaner to see if that changes anything.
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:17 am

powerstroke73L wrote:I'm wondering if there's also some sort of clog in the adapter.

That is unlikely since the adapter SVO passage is 1/4" diameter by only 1/2" long. You can look at the entire passage when you have the nozzle out to see if there is anything there. You can also unscrew the nozzle tip and look down the entire inside of the nozzle passage, its not very long either. Do you have a screen on the WVO line to stop chunks? I used a 100 mesh (150 micron) stainless screen.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby BrentM » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:29 pm

Besides using a small air pump, has anyone thought of creating pressure through steam? I was thinking like a steam engine, if you could have a water tank on top of the stove or in the stove that creates pressure that sprays the oil into the stove? I know messing with steam power can be dangerous because of the boiler exploding but I'm sure there could be a pressure regulator on it that releases the steam under certain pressure. That way you wouldn't be using any electricity to heat.
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Last edited by BrentM on Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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