Recent RUG blending Experiences.

Single Tank WVO systems and blending SVO WVO to thin it.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby David » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:00 pm

John Galt wrote:I added the FPHE after the fuel feed pump so all heated fuel is under pressure. I've never experienced any abnormalities with fuel mixtures up to the the 15% ULP I've tested.

Heated fuel under suction will 'boil-out' volatiles like ULP and can cause 'air' locks in looped return systems.


A good Point.

I had the HE after the fuel pump so the Fuel filter and IP was under pressure in the Merc where on the Nissan the pump is in the IP and therefore under draw through the filter and to whatever point in the IP.

I'll definately have to get on to buying and fitting a walbro Pump.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby coachgeo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:45 am

David wrote:.... I can make the fault appear on cue with the unleaded.
Which fault? the slug of vapor somewhere making no start/near no start situation..... or the ruff running fault?

As to determining raise in fuel temps after shut down due to lack of moving fuel.. how about a IR meter aimed at a few areas like right at the IP fuel return to see if temps raise there any in a short time span from shut down to few minutes after shut down, before it all begins to show a cooling off.... or say the Injector lines?

On the MB shut it down... and at planned intervals us the hand primer pump to move some fuel out of the IP into a cup. Use the IR meter to measure the temp. Maybe use a hose to send this small amount of return into a bottle of water. See if bubbles happen that hint at vapor was forming. Guess as a controll you would need to do this with engine still running to evaluate if air/vapor exist.

hmmmm... with that in mind.. use hand primer to push some fuel thru at planned times. With a clearn line Use one of the air bleed inline filters with the bleed port straight up.... attach this to a clear line hose with a balloon on the end. Will have to experement with distance that the hand pump will not push fuel up into the balloon but vapor may rise and partially inflate the baloon. CAUTION could be flamable vapor.
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby David » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:24 am

coachgeo wrote:
David wrote:.... I can make the fault appear on cue with the unleaded.
Which fault? the slug of vapor somewhere making no start/near no start situation..... or the ruff running fault?


Sorry, I meant the rough running.

I haven't been blending much ULP in the warmer months except for very low blends, around 2.5% and not too often. The Nissan starts fine on a B100 blend of about 10-15% about 8 months of the year and in the colder months, I add the ULP more out of nerves from all the veg gllom and doom that has stuck in my head I suppose. The rough running problem wasn't too bad in winter but still noticable under load.
At first I thought it was fuel starvation from the higher viscosity oil but then on a trip I added more oil to the tank making for a thicker blend and the problem quickly went away.

As for the other suggestions, I'm not really that motivated to do any testing beyond what I have. The rough running problem occours with the the standard fuel, If I wash it and it dissappears, that will be more than good enough for me to know it's the ethanol. I should have also pointed out that I don't get the stumbles much crusing around, it's mainly out on the high way when under heavy load and/or when Towing, even around the city.

Seeing how the E85 reacts with water, I'm also now wondering exactly how well the ethanol blends with the Veg. Might do a simple blend in a bottle test with that.

I would be interested to read of your conclusions if you do the experiemnts though just to see what you come up with and what you can narrow the problem down to. :D
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby coachgeo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:27 pm

ahhhhh... ok ruff running problem, Im with you on that. Wash the fuel and see if that corrects it.

I remember my old Maxima days, before I realized the fuel pump was in the IP... I looked all over the place for the damn thing.

Is the fuel pump "in" the IP or is the IP design create enough suction that a fuel pump is not neccissary?
Life; It's all in the Balance

Moderator
coachgeo
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:46 am
Location: North Texas

Postby David » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:00 am

Some images of the E85 wash.

Image Image Image

Pic 1 700Ml e85 with 300ml water. settled about 3 min

Pic 2 Petrol and ethanol dregs after being taken off several water/ meth mixes. Some of this petrol was in a smaller bottle and was totally clear after a few hours with no apparent dissolved water.

Some oil can be seen in as a thin mid layer between the petrol and water.
I surmise this came from the oil container I pumped the E85 in from the Bowser. Interesting to see it seperates from the petrol. I'll watch to see if the layer remains when the petrol clears.

Pic 3 50% Ethanol/ water 5 min after mixing. It usually remains cloudy.

I'm using the ethanol in my water injection system and it seems to behave somewhat differently to other mixes I have used. When I have bought pure Metholayted spirits and mixed it with water, if the injection rate is too high, the engine will nail.
I made up a hot mix today and put it in the system and although I could tell it was rich by the amount of smoke I could see in teh rear vision mirror and the way the car took off. It didn't nail at all.

On the weekend I tried mixing 50% water and petrol with an amount of dish washing liquid to dissolve and combine the two. At first they seperated but with a few more drops of dishwashing liquid in a 1L bottle, they stayed mixed overnight.

The mix seemed to work well in the WI system with a good boost in performance and some black smoke from teh exhaust to show that the engine was getting all the fuel it could burn. It did nail a little if the WI was held for a longish time but I believe that is just a matter of tuning the delivery rate for that mix.

I would imagine the water/ soap petrol mis is good for cleaning buildup from teh EGR out of the manifold however I'm not sure what burning the soap may produce in the way of leftovers if anything long term. My thoughts are it would be just burned and exhausted with no deposits but with the availability of the ethanol now so easy and cheap, I will stick to that.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby David » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:55 pm

I had a look at the 1L bottle of petrol I decanted off the eth wash after 24 hours settling. The petrol is Crystal clear with all the water and oil from the container sitting in a very defined line on the bottom.

I'll throw the petrol in with the next lot of oil but it will only make a 2% blend so not enough to tell if the removal of the Ethanol will help the stumbling problem as that would not be near enough to cause the problem anyway.

I'll be washing E-85 for the Ethanol and using the petrol and washing the unleaded to get the petrol and using the Ethanol. :?

Can't they do like a e50 mix and be done with it?
Spose there is no reason I can't do both in the same batch given how well they seperate.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Recent RUG blending Experiences.

Postby veggietruck » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:20 pm

David wrote:I have been blending with RUG in various proportions over the last 4 + years but have come across a problem in recent times that would appear to have potential to affect a lot of people using these blends.

The problem I have experienced is with vapourisation of the fuel. I have for a long time found that around 5% ULP in oil gave my vehicles a boost in performance which I put down to the ULP igniting in the cylinders early to offset the the known lag in the oil burning in comparison to diesel.

Recently, even in temps where I could happily run 15% ULP previously, I have experienced a lot of stumbling, hesitation and general poor performance when running even a small amount of ULP.
After some head scratching and investigation that ruled out any vehicle fault and some repeated testing, I have found the problem is in the RUG itself.

Recently here in OZ, the decision makers keen to jump on the vote winning green bandwagon, like many otehr places have mandated all ULP contain a percentage of ethanol. Here it is mandated as a minimum 5% and there is apparently a lot of fuel getting around with 10% or more.
The problem I believe is occouring is that the Ethanol with a 20oC lower boiling point that Petrol, is boiling out of the fuel and causing the vapour problems.

At first when I had this thought I believed it was unlikley but repeated testing where I can create the same problem and symptoms on command has shown there is something to this without doubt.
Although the amount of ethanol in the fuel when blended at 5% in oil and only beiong 10% in the Unleaded to start with I would have first thought was too small an amount to make any difference, that certainly dosen't seem to be the case.

There are 2 significant factors I see in what is happening.

Firstly, some people like myself heat their blends. as the normal thing is to aim for engine temp which is wasily 10oC ABOVE the boiling point of ethanol, that is enough to make it boil out easily.
The second thing is that often people suck the oil from the tank rather than push it to the engine. This puts a vaccum on the fuel lines and negative pressure reduces the boiling point of any liquid.
I believe this is a significant factor as even when I experimented with turning the heat off on the fuel, I still got stumbling, albeit, not quite as bad but still far too much.

Of course on a vehicle that is working hard going up a hill or towing, You are going to have maximum draw on the fuel line as well as maximum heat input to the fuel just by convection from teh hot engine bay and various components attached to the engine such as the IP itself.
I was first thinking that any air that was in the system would be firstly bled back to the tank. I found that most pumps have a negative pressure on the fuel at some point after the fuel is actually admitted to them. I also thought that if an air bubble in say an injector line formed, the high pressure of the line itself would compress the vapor enough to recondense it back to its original liquid.
Apparently this is not the case and it is unlikely a vapor created from a liquid will ever go totally back to a liquid by pressure alone.

It would seem that even though the " Bubble" in an injector line would have to be tiny in this instance, it does seem enough to upset the very precise metering the IP is doing and enough to cause the hiccups I have experienced.

At the present time, I am only addind a dash of ULP to my oil and doing the rest of the blend with B100. I have not worked out a way this problem can be overcome to allow me to get back to the ratios of ULP I was using before or to allow me to make it a Viable blending agent again.
Undoubtedly the use of a pusher pump from teh tank to the IP would help as does running the blend cold but I suspect one would achive a far greater benifit in the reduction in viscosity of the oil with heat than Blending.

My thoughts and theroys as to what the actual cause of my problems are of course may be off and diffent vehicles and IP's may not suffer the same problems but I'm reaonably certain it will be a factor for a number of people given that I have experienced this with teh 2 most popular Ip'S in use in Veg circles.

Given I can repeat the problem on command with 100% predictability, the one thing I am positive of is that the change in the fuel formulation, namely the Ethanol content is responsible for the problem.

Ethanol laced fuel has failed in every single application I use it and I despise the stuff.
It has caused me problems in my bike with deteriating rubber fuel system components causeing the bike to get no fuel, it has caused problems in garden equipment with teh water it sucks from the air and then fills the carbys with, it has caused problems with equipment with fixed carby jetting and it has become a poor and troublesome blending agent.

I am seriously considering a washing setup where I remove all the ethanol in teh fuel I get before using it by the addition and draining of water. The water will take the ethanol with it and a leave pure ULP and I can use the water in MY WI injection system which will provide a cheap and practical use for the unwanted Ethanol.

I hope in teh future the real failures and problems of this fuel can be realised and BS green " save the planet bandwagon" bleding heart pacification can be put aside and it be removed from fuel.


I agree on your conclusions...best to find non-ethanol fuel.
what will help you is to tee the fuel return line to the pickup line...should stop the vapor.
been burnin oil for over 6 yrs now.....learned a lot!
veggietruck
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am
Location: Fairview TN.

Postby veggietruck » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:22 pm

David wrote:Some images of the E85 wash.

Image Image Image

Pic 1 700Ml e85 with 300ml water. settled about 3 min

Pic 2 Petrol and ethanol dregs after being taken off several water/ meth mixes. Some of this petrol was in a smaller bottle and was totally clear after a few hours with no apparent dissolved water.

Some oil can be seen in as a thin mid layer between the petrol and water.
I surmise this came from the oil container I pumped the E85 in from the Bowser. Interesting to see it seperates from the petrol. I'll watch to see if the layer remains when the petrol clears.

Pic 3 50% Ethanol/ water 5 min after mixing. It usually remains cloudy.

I'm using the ethanol in my water injection system and it seems to behave somewhat differently to other mixes I have used. When I have bought pure Metholayted spirits and mixed it with water, if the injection rate is too high, the engine will nail.
I made up a hot mix today and put it in the system and although I could tell it was rich by the amount of smoke I could see in teh rear vision mirror and the way the car took off. It didn't nail at all.

On the weekend I tried mixing 50% water and petrol with an amount of dish washing liquid to dissolve and combine the two. At first they seperated but with a few more drops of dishwashing liquid in a 1L bottle, they stayed mixed overnight.

The mix seemed to work well in the WI system with a good boost in performance and some black smoke from teh exhaust to show that the engine was getting all the fuel it could burn. It did nail a little if the WI was held for a longish time but I believe that is just a matter of tuning the delivery rate for that mix.

I would imagine the water/ soap petrol mis is good for cleaning buildup from teh EGR out of the manifold however I'm not sure what burning the soap may produce in the way of leftovers if anything long term. My thoughts are it would be just burned and exhausted with no deposits but with the availability of the ethanol now so easy and cheap, I will stick to that.


E85....Nasty stuff!! :(
been burnin oil for over 6 yrs now.....learned a lot!
veggietruck
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am
Location: Fairview TN.

Postby David » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:02 am

veggietruck wrote:
E85....Nasty stuff!! :(


Seems Fine when you wash it and put the ethanol In the water injection system! :0)

I was talking to a client the other day who is a service manager for a Honda (car) dealership. He said it causes them no end of problems in the Vehicles even though they are supposedly designed to handle it.

At the end of the day, Like a lot of feel good green bandwagon Hoohaa,
I think it's more of a detriment to the planet over all than what it is benifit.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby veggietruck » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:39 pm

David wrote:
veggietruck wrote:
E85....Nasty stuff!! :(


Seems Fine when you wash it and put the ethanol In the water injection system! :0)

I was talking to a client the other day who is a service manager for a Honda (car) dealership. He said it causes them no end of problems in the Vehicles even though they are supposedly designed to handle it.

At the end of the day, Like a lot of feel good green bandwagon Hoohaa,
I think it's more of a detriment to the planet over all than what it is benifit.


It flat kills 2cycle stuff, have to use marine Sta-bil
been burnin oil for over 6 yrs now.....learned a lot!
veggietruck
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:31 am
Location: Fairview TN.

Previous

Return to Single Tank Systems and Blending

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron