Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Collecting, filtering and dewatering of WVO SVO vegetable oil. For Biodiesel producers too.

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Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby John Galt » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:56 pm

...
Last edited by John Galt on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby David » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:31 am

John Galt wrote:Water in vegetable oil and biodiesel exists in three phases, Dissolved, Emulsified, and Free.
about72.html

Dewatering is the process of removing the free water. Drying is the process of removing the dissolved and emulsified water.


Ah! I should have known there would be some spin doctoring and back peddling in the ultimate goal to save face and appear unfailingly correct.

Upflow settling cleans and dewaters UVO. How dry the UVO is at that point depends on the amount of emulsified and dissolved water present.

Success or failure with any process is based on understanding the important details.


Quite!
Like exactly what one is talking about which can be very hard to follow and often contains many hypocrisy's. Such as:

John Galt wrote:I use cold upflow settling to remove all those contaminants listed above, along with all the water which will react to a HPT.
The water, moisture, entrained water, dissolved water,suspended water,...a.k.a. whatever, stays at the bottom if there are no convection currents, because it is heavier than clear dry oil.
The oil that comes off the top of the primary filtering settling barrel is dry.
Only clear dry oil comes off the top, it couldn't be easier.


John Galt wrote:If cold upflow settling does not produce clear dry oil for your 'WVO' and your specific conditions then heated upflow settling may work for you.


John Galt wrote:The cold upflow processor produces clear dry VO. The clear dry oil is mixed with kerosene\D1+jetB then filtered, settled and filtered into the vehicle tank. The VO from the upflow settling can be HPT moisture tested to check for dryness.


I see here things are starting to waiver a bit. We have gone from the absoloute of clean DRY oil to IF the mix is not dry.

John Galt wrote:I mix the clean dry VO from the upflow barrel with kerosene or diesel and biodiesel in the 30 gal barrel, then pump the mix through the 5µ filter into the truck.
If the mix doesn't test dry I pump it through a cartridge column containing water absorbing polymer and back into the mix barrel till it's dry.


Then i see that the "Originally Posted" is not what was originally posted at all. Compare the first quote with the most recent one.

John Galt wrote:Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Originally posted by John Galt » Tue Mar 04, 2008 Cold upflow settling can be used to remove those contaminants listed above, including the water which will react to a HPT. The water, moisture, entrained water, dissolved water,suspended water,...a.k.a. whatever, stays at the bottom if there are no convection currents, because it is heavier than clear dry oil.


What happened to ALL water which would include all of the 3 phases and of course make the oil dry as claimed numerous times? That is an important detail isn't it?
There is definitely a changing story here and one which will without doubt change and be edited again as so frequently happened in the past to the point of Notoriety. First the ability of Up flow to produce clear DRY oil was inarguable. It would pass a HPT. Now, it's only able to dewater, as is in free water.... and dissolved water remains. This was something others were saying years back and being belittled and ridiculed for. Seems some are either VERY slow learners or are a lot more preoccupied with always appearing to be a demi god and unfailingly correct to those unaware of their proclivities rather than relay truthful and factual information.

The UVO cleaning system described here by David from Oz isn't cold upflow, however it is useful if you can only get wet emulsified 'mayonnaise/goat vomit' UVO. As with any cleaning process the more contaminated the feedstock the more processing required.


Unfortunately the flaw in that statement is that everything that I have quoted which shows this about face and predictable spin doctoring is about one single persons Oil and treatment thereof. It can be seen that the oil used in their process was repeatedly commented on to be selected because of it's high quality and care was taken not to use " goat Vomit". Unless there has been an about face on this which may be the only factual thing unlikely to change, the oil that was being used before because of it's high quality was very similar to the oil being used today for which the claims of the ability of the process have been downgraded significantly..... and exactly to the Claims others made MANY years ago to the fact that the upflow system could NOT produce clear DRY oil without further processing.

At least everyone is in agreeance now. For years there was a very significant difference of opinion but now we are unanimous in the position that Upflow can remove free water but dissolved water will REMAIN and therefore require further processing to produce DRY oil, be that to the standard of a HPT or stricter parameters. It took many years but at least that bit of flawed and untrue load of veg oil poppycock has been put to rest.
Still, so many more Veg oil mantra fables to set straight though.

It takes a while but sooner or later the people that make untruthful claims are shown up for the unreliability and misinformation they champion.
However Vehemently... at first anyway.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby David » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:47 am

Geez John, You have been a very busy boy editing and deleting posts this last 24 hours or so?
Something in the info that you don't want people to read or have changed you mind on?

I did some digging to make sure I had the details of what was being said originally correct. There is no doubt about it. Repeatedly and for years, it was said that upflow settling produced DRY oil, not dewatered which was questioned repeatedly. People were made out to be idiots or trolls for questioning the ability of the process to produce DRY oil when they knew all along it could not. Funnily enough, the highly edited posts that remain seem to be changed to reflect the current thinking. Luckily on other forums where editing privileges have been severely limited to some, the original statements are preserved for posterity.


john galt
Member

posted July 16, 2009 08:13 PM Hide Post
I run it through bug screen, then pantyhose and into an upflow unit. It comes out clear, clean and dry for either mixing with diesel for VO fuel blends or processing to make perfect biodiesel.


quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Then perhaps your eminence can explain with your infinite wisdom and unsurpassed experience, why the upflow settling system I use produces clean dry oil that tests with NO moisture.

Gawd, what an ego.



Yes, In light of what was finally admitted, you can say that again!! :roll:


Originally posted by john galt:

quote:
It removes free water but not dissolved water. Freezing, heating or presettling may be removing dissolved water but upflow settling itself does not. Test it for yourself and see.


Yes it does and yes I did. Any moisture, whether it's free or attached is heavier than clear clean dry oil.

Ron Schroeder
Member




There were a few people early on in the piece that spotted the obvious flaws in this system and the claims being repeatedly parroted and insisted upon. It just goes to show, no matter how many times some one 2wants to get a pet cause and champion it endlessly in a bit to win the acceptance and esteem of others, Flawed info is still FLAWED INFO and always will be. It does tend to make the fool repeatedly pushing the incorrect information look rather stupid and non creditable with anything else they say in the end though.

That said, some still want to stick to their guns and continue to build on their lie even when it is exposed.

<DCS>

posted January 04, 2008 07:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:

To be technically correct, settling in any form (upflow, downflow, sideways flow or even speeded up with a CF) will not remove dissolved water at all. The dissolved water must be converted to suspended or free water before it will settle. If the water is dissolved, it will neither fall or rise.

Thank You Ron For finally putting forward some Accurate and reasonable info. It make a pleasant change from those that have nothing more than insults and sarcasm to attempt to assert their flawed position.

This is exactly what I suggested initially but of course was dismissed by some with their typical sarcastic and arrogant attitude which is very telling of the level of their actual intelligence and are never wrong in anything they say or do Roll Eyes :


quote:
Originally posted by DCS:
I do have severe reservations about the settling removing suspended water. If all the oil has the same amount of suspended water, then no oil is going to be heavier or lighter than any other so it will not precipitate out, rather just stay suspended.
My tests on a number of batches of oil, some that had been settling over 6 months confirmed this, as have 2 different qualified people I have by chance spoken to in the last week.

Something can only settle if it is heavier than the the medium it is suspended in. If matter is dissolved and bonded to another medium and the entire volume of the two is of consistent makeup and density, then nothing in the mix will be heavier than anything else.

The reason some people may get dry oil ( or so they say) out of what they put down to a settling process, has nothing to do with other people not being able to make it work, rather the other factors acting on the oil that the indignant and all knowing dismiss as not having any effect. Obviously not everyone will have their oil frozen and thawed or whatever else before they settle it or the identical set of factors that others do.

People relying solely on settling will not be able to get dry oil from that process alone and will need remove the dissolved water by some other means.



john galt
Member

posted January 05, 2008 09:29 PM

As long as the hot pan test shows the oil off the top of the barrel is dry, then I'm not particularly concerned with the labels put on the water left in the barrel.



john galt
Member

posted January 27, 2008 05:54 PM

quote:
Not surprising, since hydrogenated oil and animal fats attract and retain moisture. Remove the hydrogenated oil and animal fats and most of the water goes with it. cold upflow settling process removes those hygroscopic components in the used VO, and along with that most of the moisture is separated out as well. The clear, dry oil off the top of the cold upflow barrel tests dry by weight or hot pan test. Any moisture that fails to register on either of those tests isn't a problem with the inline IP on my truck.


Davids
Member
posted January 02, 2008 04:25 AM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by john galt:

quote:
It removes free water but not dissolved water. Freezing, heating or presettling may be removing dissolved water but upflow settling itself does not. Test it for yourself and see.


Yes it does and yes I did. Any moisture, whether it's free or attached is heavier than clear clean dry oil.

So you can categorically confirm that you have tried upflow settling with No heat, no presettling and no freezing and were still able to get oil that was sufficiently dry to pass a hot pan test?

I find this exceptionally hard to believe. The process is less relevant than the characteristics of the way water and veg oil behave.

Before anyone rely's on their oil being properly dried through this method, I urge them to test their oil to confirm whether it is actually dry or not before putting their fuel system at risk.


So Now after all the questioning, it has been confirmed that upflow settling DOES NOT produce DRY oil at all. It merely dewaters The large droplets as was said by some people all along but repeatedly denied and ridiculed.


It seems the Original Flawed piece has been deleted for reasons that escape me. Maybe there is an editing limit. If one has to edit a piece 9 times then the 10th time it is opened to be spin doctored should rightfully be the last. Given this thread has been referred to so many times at different places all around the net, I'll post it back here again so people can now see what the flawed statements were and why they are patently incorrect as pointed out all those years ago by people although patently denied till Now.



Cold Upflow Settling
Written by John Galt

Dry fuel is the single most important factor for successful long term operation of any diesel fuel engine or turbine. Vegetable oil, and especially the contaminants in used VO absorb and retain moisture/water. If one takes a well mixed sample of used VO one will very likely find enough moisture present to show on a hot pan test. If one then chills the used VO and lets it settle so the water absorbing contaminants [animal fats, trans-fats, saturated fats, hydrogenated oil, food particles, burnt bits, etc] fall out of the mix, then HP tests the two fractions, where would you guess most of the moisture is?

I use cold upflow settling to remove all those contaminants listed above, along with all the water which will react to a HPT. Clear, dry, clean VO with NO contaminants gives the fewest problems when used as diesel fuel, regardless if its being used as 100%SVO, blended VO-ULSD mixes, or transmogrified into biodiesel.

Plant oils are generally too viscous to be used directly in diesel engines unless the ambient temperature is above ~80°F, and even then only in some of the more simple mechanically controlled engines. To use veg oil in all engines in temperatures below 80°F the viscosity must be reduced.

Three methods are generally used to lower the viscosity:

Convert the oil chemically to biodiesel,
Heat the fuel system to above 80°F and the oil to >150°F before the IP,
Dilute the oil with solvents, after removing the oils and fats that separate out below 80°F.

Older simpler engines in warm climates where it never freezes are much more tolerant to fuel contaminated with water and other stuff. Modern engines operating in frigid climates are very sensitive to contaminated diesel fuel. Pilots in the north always drain samples from the bottom of every fuel tank and visually inspect the sample for any cloudiness indicating moisture or other contamination, before taking off. Where they work there is no margin for error.

This drawing shows a simple VO cleaning system.

Cold Upflow Filter Drawing

The processor consists of a 10 gallon barrel with the bottom cut out, and mounted open bottom up bung-to-bung with a 2" close nipple onto a vertical 55 gallon settling barrel. A 2ft piece of 2" exhaust pipe with the top end flared, sits inside the nipple coupling and ensures that the new oil is delivered near the bottom of the settling barrel. Steel pipe is rated by inside diameter and exhaust tube is rated by outside diameter, thus they fit well together.

Primary filtration is through bugscreen and pantyhose on a simple 2x2 wood frame that sits on the rim of the 10 gallon 'funnel'. The oil settles in the barrel and every time I add oil into the settling barrel, clear oil is forced out of the 3/4" bung through a street elbow, a hose bib valve and through a clear vinyl tube to the canvas bag 'jeans leg' ~ 20 micron bag filter assembly, into the final filter barrel. I find that the 30 gal poly barrels are more convenient for the 2nd stage, and use two of them as collection/final filtering barrels.

For making biodiesel, the oil off the top of the first barrel is ready for processing.

Final filtration is by rotary hand pump, through a whole house filter assembly with a 5µ filter cartridge. The barrel pump I use is a rotating-vane, positive-displacement, self-priming type which can pull or push equally well. The 2nd barrel can be heated or the VO diluted with ULSD or kerosene, to make final filtering easier.

This system works best with no heat at temperatures below 65°F to remove saturated fats and hydrogenated oil, or low power [less than 100W] evenly distributed heat if one wants to keep them in the mix. If one does a hot pan test on the oil in a cubie, one will discover that as one goes deeper in the cubie the amount of moisture increases. In my experience most of the moisture is in the sludgy emulsion of animal fats, hydrogenated oil, and food particles in the bottom layer. Since this is the stuff that causes most of the problems with cold blend fuel systems, I use the unheated upflow settling to separate and remove the troublesome sludge and the moisture it contains.

The canola oil I use is clear and reasonably dry to start with, hasn't been mixed with animal fats, and my supplier puts it back into sealed cubies while it's still warm. The cubies sometimes settle for months and I decant the clearest portion off the top into the processor. A cubie spout makes it easier. I pour a bucket or cubie of oil into the 10 gallon barrel and let it do it's thing. The oil that comes off the top of the primary filtering settling barrel is not wet.

Cold Upflow FilteringThis VO cleaning system is based on the simple principle that water, wet oil, fats, and most other contaminants are heavier than clear dry oil. Suspended water and oil bonded with suspended water is heavier than clear dry oil, therefore it will not float to the top. Because the 'new' oil is placed at the bottom, any water, wet oil or food particles will NOT float to the top if the oil is not heated. If there are no convection currents to mix the oil then the clear dry oil comes to the top and the contaminants stay on the bottom. This cleaning process is called "Upflow Settling". This first stage gets VO so clean that very little builds up in the bag filter and the cartridge filter is good for hundreds of gallons.

Observations indicate that a couple of material properties make upflow separation work. Water molecules are more likely to be attracted to, and bond with, other water molecules, food particles and hydrogenated oils and fats, rather than bond to clear dry oil molecules. Because these contaminants are all heavier than clear dry oil, they fall to the bottom of the barrel. The 2" drop tube introduces the newest oil into the bottom 1/3 of the barrel, this gives any moisture laden particles and entrained water the opportunity to bond with the sludge. Without the drop tube the system won't work. The other factor is that the clear dry oil molecules are the lightest substances in the whole mix, and if the mix is introduced near the bottom, only the lightest molecules will float to the top. The water, moisture, entrained water, dissolved water,suspended water,...a.k.a. whatever, stays at the bottom if there are no convection currents, because it is heavier than clear dry oil. With time, water molecules, free or attached find other water molecules and bond, this process eventually makes drops of water large enough to sink to the bottom.

The slow rate of new oil introduced is controlled by the valve on the clear oil output tube to about 10gal/hr. No modifications to the 2" x 2' dip tube required. The valve can be adjusted so the oil is introduced slowly to reduce any turbulence mixing the sludge in the bottom 1/4 of the barrel. Only clear dry oil comes off the top, it couldn't be easier.

In this cold climate I don't use solid oil for motor fuel, at any time of the year. This settling process removes it as a fuel system contaminant. The thick, wet sludge is occasionally pumped off the bottom of the barrel and mixed with sawdust for woodstove fuel. That sludge is a valuable resource for me, when mixed with sawdust from chainsawing fuel wood and packed into 1/2 gallon [2 Liter] milk cartons. One of those on a wood fire first thing in the morning quickly warms the house right up to comfortable temperature, especially when it's 30 below. There's a lot of BTUs in a half gallon of transfat oil/fat soaked sawdust.

Cold processing is more effective with reasonably clear used oils that don't have a lot of hydrogenated oil and fats, and may not work with all oils. The sort of wet, goat-vomit, grey-mayonaise, hydrogenated crap that some have to contend with probably won't come out much cleaner. Cold Upflow Settling basically separates heavier crud from clear oil.

The processor is in an 8 x 8 unheated shelter tent. The processing for winter oil 50VO/50ULSD base mix is done by freeze-up in late October. Even when it's below freezing the system will work to about 0°F to process clear liquid canola. No added heat, just gravity. The system has been producing clear clean dry UVO since 2007.

This is the simplest system that requires no electricity. It can be easily assembled with a few commonly available materials. For those who want more, it can be expanded easily with additional barrels and a small electric transfer pump.

It won't produce huge volumes quickly, but it can be up and running for less than $100 while you design, develop and assemble your Ultimate-SuperMega-HyperspaceCentrifuge-VO Processor.

The basic principle of upflow settling can be successfully incorporated into other cleaning systems..

_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby John Galt » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:25 am

...
Last edited by John Galt on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby David » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:21 pm

John Galt wrote:Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Originally posted by John Galt » Tue Mar 04, 2008

Clear, dry, clean VO with NO contaminants gives the fewest problems when used as diesel fuel, regardless if its being used as 100%SVO, blended VO-ULSD mixes, or as biodiesel.

Plant oils are generally too viscous to be used directly in diesel engines unless the ambient temperature is above ~80°F, and even then only in some of the more simple mechanically controlled engines. To use veg oil in all engines in ambient temperatures below 80°F the viscosity must be reduced.

One of three methods is generally used to lower the viscosity for trouble free operation at normal engine temperatures:
1-Convert the oil chemically to biodiesel, using alcohol and caustic to remove the thicker glycerin component.
2-Heat the fuel system to above 80°F and the oil to >150°F before the IP,
3-Dilute the oil with solvents, after first removing the oils and fats that separate out below 80°F.

Most combustion chamber deposits occur with cold engines at start-up with any fuel. The important point is to completely burn the VegOil. The greatest amount of pollution and damage will occur with high percent blends of cold VO fuel in cold engines. Cold starts can form excessive deposits and produce toxic emissions. Both the engine and the environment are potentially harmed. Engine pre-heating and fuel system heating can both contribute to more complete VO combustion with VO blends or V100 a.k.a. "SVO". Prewarming the engine to 68°F can reduce harmful engine deposits, especially with VO fuels.

Older simpler engines in warm climates where it never freezes are much more tolerant to fuel contaminated with water and other stuff. Modern engines operating in frigid climates are very sensitive to contaminated diesel fuel. Pilots in the north always drain samples from the bottom of every fuel tank and visually inspect the sample for any cloudiness indicating moisture or other contamination, before taking off. Where they work there is no margin for error.

Dry fuel is the single most important factor for successful long term operation of any diesel fuel engine or turbine. Vegetable oil, and especially the contaminants in used VO absorb and retain moisture/water. If one takes a well mixed sample of used VO one will very likely find enough moisture present to show on a hot pan test. If one then chills the used VO and lets it settle so the water absorbing contaminants [animal fats, trans-fats, saturated fats, hydrogenated oil, food particles, burnt bits, etc] fall out of the mix, then HP tests the two fractions, where would you guess most of the moisture is? Cold upflow settling can be used to remove those contaminants listed above, including the water which will react to a HPT.

This system works best with no heat at temperatures below 65°F to remove saturated fats and hydrogenated oil, or low power [less than 100W] evenly distributed heat if one wants to keep them in the mix. If one does a hot pan test on the oil in a cubie, one will discover that as one goes deeper in the cubie the amount of moisture increases. Most of the water is in the sludgy emulsion of animal fats, hydrogenated oil, and food particles in the bottom layer. Since this is the stuff that causes most of the problems with cold blend fuel systems, the unheated upflow settling separates and removes the troublesome sludge and the water it contains.

This drawing shows a simple VO cleaning system.
SSCUVO1.gif

download/file.php?mode=view&id=70

The upflow processor consists of a vertical 55 gallon settling barrel with a short piece of 2" pipe in the bung connecting with the bung in an inverted 10 gallon barrel. The bottom is cut out of the 10 gal barrel to form an input 'funnel'. A 2ft piece of 2" exhaust pipe with the top end flared, sits inside the 2" pipe coupling and ensures that the new oil is delivered near the bottom of the settling barrel. Steel pipe is rated by inside diameter and exhaust tube is rated by outside diameter, thus they fit well together.

Primary filtration is through bugscreen on a simple 2x2 wood frame that sits on the rim of the 10 gallon 'funnel'. A plastic bucket with holes around the bottom circumference has a plastic mesh bag [from citrus fruit] folded over the bucket rim and secured with a zip tie. Large size pantyhose is also secured around the bucket rim and supported by the mesh bag. The oil goes through the prefilters and fills the upper 10gal barrel, then down the tube into the bottom of the upflow barrel. The oil settles in the upflow barrel and every time I add oil into the upper barrel, clear oil is forced out of the 3/4" bung through a street elbow, a hose bib valve and through a clear vinyl tube into the inverted 5 gallon water jug/canvas bag filter assembly, and into the final filter barrel. The 30 gal poly barrels are more convenient for the 2nd stage, and I use two of them as collection/final filtering barrels.

For making biodiesel, the oil off the top of the first barrel is ready for processing.

Final filtration is by hand barrel pump drawing from 3/4 down into the final settling barrel , through a whole house filter assembly with a 5µ filter cartridge. The barrel pump is a rotating-vane, positive-displacement, self-priming type which can pull or push equally well. The 2nd barrel can be heated or the VO diluted with ULSD or kerosene, to make final filtering easier.

Cold processing is more effective with reasonably clear used oils that don't have a lot of hydrogenated oil and fats, and may not work with all oils. The sort of wet, goat-vomit, grey-mayonaise, hydrogenated crap that some have to contend with probably won't come out much cleaner. Cold Upflow Settling basically separates heavier crud from clear oil.

The canola oil I use is clear and reasonably dry to start with, hasn't been mixed with animal fats, and my supplier puts it back into sealed cubies while it's still warm. The cubies sometimes settle for months and I decant the clearest portion off the top into the processor. A cubie spout makes it easier. I pour a bucket or cubie of oil into the 10 gallon barrel and let it do it's thing. The oil that comes off the top of the primary filtering settling barrel is dry.

The slow rate of new oil introduced is controlled by the valve on the clear oil output tube to about 5gal/hr. No modifications to the 2" x 2' dip tube required. The valve can be adjusted so the oil is introduced slowly to reduce any turbulence mixing the sludge in the bottom 1/4 of the barrel. Only clear dry oil comes off the top, it couldn't be easier.

This VO cleaning system is based on the simple principle that water, wet oil, fats, and most other contaminants are heavier than clear dry oil. Suspended water and oil bonded with suspended water is heavier than clear dry oil, therefore it will not float to the top. Because the 'new' oil is placed at the bottom, any water, wet oil or food particles will NOT float to the top if the oil is not heated. If there are no convection currents to mix the oil then the clear dry oil comes to the top and the contaminants stay on the bottom. This cleaning process is called "Upflow Settling". This first stage gets VO so clean that very little builds up in the bag filter and the cartridge filter is good for hundreds of gallons.

Observations indicate that a couple of material properties make upflow separation work. Water molecules are more likely to be attracted to, and bond with, other water molecules, food particles and hydrogenated oils and fats, rather than bond to clear dry oil molecules. Because these contaminants are all heavier than clear dry oil, they fall to the bottom of the barrel. The 2" drop tube introduces the newest oil into the bottom 1/3 of the barrel, this gives any moisture laden particles and entrained water the opportunity to bond with the sludge. Without the drop tube the system won't work. The other factor is that the clear dry oil molecules are the lightest substances in the whole mix, and if the mix is introduced near the bottom, only the lightest molecules will float to the top. The water, moisture, entrained water, dissolved water,suspended water,...a.k.a. whatever, stays at the bottom if there are no convection currents, because it is heavier than clear dry oil. With time, water molecules, free or attached find other water molecules and bond, this process eventually makes drops of water large enough to sink to the bottom.

In this cold climate I don't use solid oil for motor fuel, at any time of the year. This settling process removes it as a fuel system contaminant. The thick, wet sludge is occasionally pumped off the bottom of the barrel and mixed with sawdust for woodstove fuel. That sludge is a valuable resource for me, when mixed with sawdust from chainsawing fuel wood and packed into 1/2 gallon [2 Liter] milk cartons. One of those on a wood fire first thing in the morning quickly warms the house right up to comfortable temperature, especially when it's 30 below. There's a lot of BTUs in a half gallon of transfat oil/fat soaked sawdust.

The processor is in an 8 x 8 unheated shelter tent. The processing for winter oil 50VO/50ULSD base mix is done by freeze-up in late October. Even when it's below freezing the system will work to about 0°F to process clear liquid canola. No added heat, just gravity. The system has been producing clear clean dry oil used for diesel fuel mixes in temperatures to 30 below, on a few vehicles, with about 150,000 km total so far and no significant problems or anomalies.

This is one of the simplest continuous process systems that requires no electricity. It can be easily assembled with a few commonly available materials. For those who want more, it can be expanded easily with additional barrels and a small electric transfer pump. It won't produce huge volumes quickly, but it can be up and running for less than $100.

The basic principle of upflow settling can be successfully incorporated into other cleaning systems..


WOW, Yet another version of the same well worn misinformation.
I wonder how many times this version has been edited? 5, 10 . 20? May have been originally posted in 2008 but as we have come to learn, Details are important and editing would be a predictable escape clause in this scenario wouldn't it?
I'll guarantee this version was also edited recently in an attempt to support the "never wrong" Illusion.

Still says it will get oil to pass a HPT which of course if questioned, would have the ever present provisos, hidden escape clauses and unfurnished details. In this case, I suspect the " Details" would be that dry oil can be used to start with, that pre processing and settling is done before hand and the process only works under specific and limited conditions of temperature, Humidity, phase of the moon and when the planets of Mars, Jupiter and youranus are in the correct celestial alignment which only occurs every 346 years.

Details are all good and well but when a process is reliant on hidden, non clearly expressed and impractical parameters, then the whole procedure becomes someones pet delusion of grandeur and importance and something it is clearly not and will not work for the majority of of people, if anyone at all.

Ron Schroeder's Upflow settling method certainly is an effective one when used within it's limitations and will remove a lot of particulate and free water but even the inventor of the system Himself says upflow will NOT create DRY oil.
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby John Galt » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:58 pm

Re: Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Postby John Galt » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:25 am
Dewatering and Cleaning VO with Cold Upflow Settling

Originally posted by John Galt » Tue Mar 04, 2008

Clear, dry, clean VO with NO contaminants gives the fewest problems when used as diesel fuel, regardless if its being used as 100%SVO, blended VO-ULSD mixes, or as biodiesel.

Plant oils are generally too viscous to be used directly in diesel engines unless the ambient temperature is above ~80°F, and even then only in some of the more simple mechanically controlled engines. To use veg oil in all engines in ambient temperatures below 80°F the viscosity must be reduced.

One of three methods is generally used to lower the viscosity for trouble free operation at normal engine temperatures:
1-Convert the oil chemically to biodiesel, using alcohol and caustic to remove the thicker glycerin component.
2-Heat the fuel system to above 80°F and the oil to >150°F before the IP,
3-Dilute the oil with solvents, after first removing the oils and fats that separate out below 80°F.

Most combustion chamber deposits occur with cold engines at start-up with any fuel. The important point is to completely burn the VegOil. The greatest amount of pollution and damage will occur with high percent blends of cold VO fuel in cold engines. Cold starts can form excessive deposits and produce toxic emissions. Both the engine and the environment are potentially harmed. Engine pre-heating and fuel system heating can both contribute to more complete VO combustion with VO blends or V100 a.k.a. "SVO". Prewarming the engine to 68°F can reduce harmful engine deposits, especially with VO fuels.

Older simpler engines in warm climates where it never freezes are much more tolerant to fuel contaminated with water and other stuff. Modern engines operating in frigid climates are very sensitive to contaminated diesel fuel. Pilots in the north always drain samples from the bottom of every fuel tank and visually inspect the sample for any cloudiness indicating moisture or other contamination, before taking off. Where they work there is no margin for error.

Dry fuel is the single most important factor for successful long term operation of any diesel fuel engine or turbine. Vegetable oil, and especially the contaminants in used VO absorb and retain moisture/water. If one takes a well mixed sample of used VO one will very likely find enough moisture present to show on a hot pan test. If one then chills the used VO and lets it settle so the water absorbing contaminants [animal fats, trans-fats, saturated fats, hydrogenated oil, food particles, burnt bits, etc] fall out of the mix, then HP tests the two fractions, where would you guess most of the moisture is? Cold upflow settling can be used to remove those contaminants listed above, including the water which will react to a HPT.

This system works best with no heat at temperatures below 65°F to remove saturated fats and hydrogenated oil, or low power [less than 100W] evenly distributed heat if one wants to keep them in the mix. If one does a hot pan test on the oil in a cubie, one will discover that as one goes deeper in the cubie the amount of moisture increases. Most of the water is in the sludgy emulsion of animal fats, hydrogenated oil, and food particles in the bottom layer. Since this is the stuff that causes most of the problems with cold blend fuel systems, the unheated upflow settling separates and removes the troublesome sludge and the water it contains.

This drawing shows a simple VO cleaning system.
SSCUVO1.gif

download/file.php?mode=view&id=70

The upflow processor consists of a vertical 55 gallon settling barrel with a short piece of 2" pipe in the bung connecting with the bung in an inverted 10 gallon barrel. The bottom is cut out of the 10 gal barrel to form an input 'funnel'. A 2ft piece of 2" exhaust pipe with the top end flared, sits inside the 2" pipe coupling and ensures that the new oil is delivered near the bottom of the settling barrel. Steel pipe is rated by inside diameter and exhaust tube is rated by outside diameter, thus they fit well together.

Primary filtration is through bugscreen on a simple 2x2 wood frame that sits on the rim of the 10 gallon 'funnel'. A plastic bucket with holes around the bottom circumference has a plastic mesh bag [from citrus fruit] folded over the bucket rim and secured with a zip tie. Large size pantyhose is also secured around the bucket rim and supported by the mesh bag. The oil goes through the prefilters and fills the upper 10gal barrel, then down the tube into the bottom of the upflow barrel. The oil settles in the upflow barrel and every time I add oil into the upper barrel, clear oil is forced out of the 3/4" bung through a street elbow, a hose bib valve and through a clear vinyl tube into the inverted 5 gallon water jug/canvas bag filter assembly, and into the final filter barrel. The 30 gal poly barrels are more convenient for the 2nd stage, and I use two of them as collection/final filtering barrels.

For making biodiesel, the oil off the top of the first barrel is ready for processing.

Final filtration is by hand barrel pump drawing from 3/4 down into the final settling barrel , through a whole house filter assembly with a 5µ filter cartridge. The barrel pump is a rotating-vane, positive-displacement, self-priming type which can pull or push equally well. The 2nd barrel can be heated or the VO diluted with ULSD or kerosene, to make final filtering easier.

Cold processing is more effective with reasonably clear used oils that don't have a lot of hydrogenated oil and fats, and may not work with all oils. The sort of wet, goat-vomit, grey-mayonaise, hydrogenated crap that some have to contend with probably won't come out much cleaner. Cold Upflow Settling basically separates heavier crud from clear oil.

The canola oil I use is clear and reasonably dry to start with, hasn't been mixed with animal fats, and my supplier puts it back into sealed cubies while it's still warm. The cubies sometimes settle for months and I decant the clearest portion off the top into the processor. A cubie spout makes it easier. I pour a bucket or cubie of oil into the 10 gallon barrel and let it do it's thing. The oil that comes off the top of the primary filtering settling barrel is dry.

The slow rate of new oil introduced is controlled by the valve on the clear oil output tube to about 5gal/hr. No modifications to the 2" x 2' dip tube required. The valve can be adjusted so the oil is introduced slowly to reduce any turbulence mixing the sludge in the bottom 1/4 of the barrel. Only clear dry oil comes off the top, it couldn't be easier.

This VO cleaning system is based on the simple principle that water, wet oil, fats, and most other contaminants are heavier than clear dry oil. Suspended water and oil bonded with suspended water is heavier than clear dry oil, therefore it will not float to the top. Because the 'new' oil is placed at the bottom, any water, wet oil or food particles will NOT float to the top if the oil is not heated. If there are no convection currents to mix the oil then the clear dry oil comes to the top and the contaminants stay on the bottom. This cleaning process is called "Upflow Settling". This first stage gets VO so clean that very little builds up in the bag filter and the cartridge filter is good for hundreds of gallons.

Observations indicate that a couple of material properties make upflow separation work. Water molecules are more likely to be attracted to, and bond with, other water molecules, food particles and hydrogenated oils and fats, rather than bond to clear dry oil molecules. Because these contaminants are all heavier than clear dry oil, they fall to the bottom of the barrel. The 2" drop tube introduces the newest oil into the bottom 1/3 of the barrel, this gives any moisture laden particles and entrained water the opportunity to bond with the sludge. Without the drop tube the system won't work. The other factor is that the clear dry oil molecules are the lightest substances in the whole mix, and if the mix is introduced near the bottom, only the lightest molecules will float to the top. The water, moisture, entrained water, dissolved water,suspended water,...a.k.a. whatever, stays at the bottom if there are no convection currents, because it is heavier than clear dry oil. With time, water molecules, free or attached find other water molecules and bond, this process eventually makes drops of water large enough to sink to the bottom.

In this cold climate I don't use solid oil for motor fuel, at any time of the year. This settling process removes it as a fuel system contaminant. The thick, wet sludge is occasionally pumped off the bottom of the barrel and mixed with sawdust for woodstove fuel. That sludge is a valuable resource for me, when mixed with sawdust from chainsawing fuel wood and packed into 1/2 gallon [2 Liter] milk cartons. One of those on a wood fire first thing in the morning quickly warms the house right up to comfortable temperature, especially when it's 30 below. There's a lot of BTUs in a half gallon of transfat oil/fat soaked sawdust.

The processor is in an 8 x 8 unheated shelter tent. The processing for winter oil 50VO/50ULSD base mix is done by freeze-up in late October. Even when it's below freezing the system will work to about 0°F to process clear liquid canola. No added heat, just gravity. The system has been producing clear clean dry oil used for diesel fuel mixes in temperatures to 30 below, on a few vehicles, with about 150,000 km total so far and no significant problems or anomalies.

This is one of the simplest continuous process systems that requires no electricity. It can be easily assembled with a few commonly available materials. For those who want more, it can be expanded easily with additional barrels and a small electric transfer pump. It won't produce huge volumes quickly, but it can be up and running for less than $100.

The basic principle of upflow settling can be successfully incorporated into other cleaning systems..
John Galt
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: Coldest North America

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