electric fuel pumps

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby SunWizard » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:23 am

Welder wrote:The term "valveless" refers to the fact that no fuel selection valve is required, only 2 check valves on each branch of the supply line and one 3 way valve on the return line.

I think the term valveless come from the fact that the vegistroke is valveless since the powerstroke engine has no return, the pump is deadheaded.
Last edited by SunWizard on Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby flysurge » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:25 am

agreed , better to pay for a good pump once, than two or three bad ones and then the good one. Thanks for the info.
Out of curiosity is the dvIII in your name for the Fokker or DeHaviland version? I flew the dhc-8 for a few years back in the early ninties, and have a SE5a project underway.
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Postby Welder » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:26 pm

SunWizard wrote:
Welder wrote:The term "valveless" refers to the fact that no fuel selection valve is required, only 2 check valves on each branch of the supply line and one 3 way valve on the return line.

I think the term valveless come from the fact that the vegistroke is valveless since the powerstroke engine has no return, the pump is deadheaded.


That could be correct. I don't know. I only learned the term at infopop. Later, I found out that the plumbing style was also called Veggiestroke. I guess they developed that style.
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Postby David » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:21 pm

If a person really wanted a cheap, "move anything" overkill type pump, all you would need to do is get a SB Chevy oil pump and electrically Drive ( or you could drive it off the engine) it and it would supply all the fuel at more flow and pressure than you could ever need. The thing is specifically designed to pump oil after all.

Yes, the things do have a tiny bit of seepage around the shaft. I use one to collect oil with and I very uch doubt if the leakage would half fill a thimble for every 50 gal I pump and there are many ways of getting around this anyway.

The price of some of these pumps just seems crazy to me for what we want them for and most are marginal anyway. I reckon a bit of work to a chev ( or there may be other types more suitable) oil pump would be well and truly worth the effort for those that really need something with flow, strength and longevity.
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Postby zoochy » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:12 am

Welder wrote:
zoochy wrote:I use a Franken Facet 40198.

http://www.facet-purolator.com/solidstate.asp

Warm veg is easier to pump than solid veg.


Don't you mean a 40189? I followed the link and looked for a 40198, but couldn't find one.

How is your pump working? How much did you pay? Where did you buy it?

I like the specs on the #40109.


Oooops typo 40108 is what I think I have. I don’t have the bill and it's presently covered in a winters worth of road sand. When I lift the back end up to change over to my summer tires I'll clean it off to see if I can find any markings to confirm the model #.

I bought it at Lordco for $CDN 75 I believe. I too like the specs for the 40109 but the 108 is what they had in stock and I actually bought it w/o doing any research. It’s been pumping away for over a year now and has not failed so…?
1988 Dodge Ram in progress.
1997 Dodge Ram- 2 tank; Arctic Fox pickup; TIH; Plantdrive VM2 filter; Hydroforce valves
PREVIOUS 91 Toyota Hiace 3L engine >200,000 km on: 88% canola WVO; 11% old gasoline; 0.6% turpentine; 0.3% acetone; 0.1% eye of newt
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Postby Welder » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:36 am

David wrote:If a person really wanted a cheap, "move anything" overkill type pump, all you would need to do is get a SB Chevy oil pump and electrically Drive ( or you could drive it off the engine) it and it would supply all the fuel at more flow and pressure than you could ever need. The thing is specifically designed to pump oil after all.

Yes, the things do have a tiny bit of seepage around the shaft. I use one to collect oil with and I very uch doubt if the leakage would half fill a thimble for every 50 gal I pump and there are many ways of getting around this anyway.

The price of some of these pumps just seems crazy to me for what we want them for and most are marginal anyway. I reckon a bit of work to a chev ( or there may be other types more suitable) oil pump would be well and truly worth the effort for those that really need something with flow, strength and longevity.




Using a Chevy small block oil pump (Melling M-72) is exactly what my first plan was. The problem is that they move waaaay too much oil and leak a little at the shaft. In the oil pan, shaft leakage isn't a big deal. In the back of my old work truck, it plain ugly. In the trunk of a 2007 Mercedes, it's a non starter.

It's possible to reduce the flow through pulleys or gear reducers, but the engineer at Melling told me that he thinks the pumps would be unstable at 300-400 RPM (23 GPG for my F-250).

I've found what I think will work, but testing will tell.
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Postby Welder » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:41 am

zoochy wrote:
Welder wrote:
zoochy wrote:I use a Franken Facet 40198.

http://www.facet-purolator.com/solidstate.asp

Warm veg is easier to pump than solid veg.


Don't you mean a 40189? I followed the link and looked for a 40198, but couldn't find one.

How is your pump working? How much did you pay? Where did you buy it?

I like the specs on the #40109.


Oooops typo 40108 is what I think I have. I don’t have the bill and it's presently covered in a winters worth of road sand. When I lift the back end up to change over to my summer tires I'll clean it off to see if I can find any markings to confirm the model #.

I bought it at Lordco for $CDN 75 I believe. I too like the specs for the 40109 but the 108 is what they had in stock and I actually bought it w/o doing any research. It’s been pumping away for over a year now and has not failed so…?




That's great Zoochy! $75 is fairly painless.

The link seems to show that the 40108 has no internal valves. I wonder if it has a bypass valve to deal with over pressure issues?
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:06 am

flysurge wrote:agreed , better to pay for a good pump once, than two or three bad ones and then the good one. Thanks for the info.
Out of curiosity is the dvIII in your name for the Fokker or DeHaviland version? I flew the dhc-8 for a few years back in the early ninties, and have a SE5a project underway.


OT, I have been Campaigning a 1/3 scale, 114" Fokker DVIII for 7 yrs. It now has a 63cc John Deere/echo twin in it for power. If you go to the Dawn Patrol in Elington CT, or Rhinbeck, we could mix it up in the air :D , or any of the funflys in the Northeast. For the WWI fans I also fly a 93" F6F, Hellcat complete with all the Amenities, it is Modestly powered with a 100cc Huskey motor :D :D :D , been clocked at 136 MPH. these are just some of my planes. end of OT.

I see you have a Mercedes, the smaller FASS would be way more than adequate. doesn't your motor have the Bosch positive displacement pump that is also on the Cummins 5.9? if so all you need to do is plum it as SunZizard has his truck.
93, F250, 7.3, N/A, WVO since 5-06 over 147K so far, 2wd, ext cab, 100 gal. tank, DIY system. 10psi 23A FASS w/ ProComp regulator.

FilterFuge FF60 CF, over 22,300 gal. spun
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Postby flysurge » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:57 am

spoke to a Fass dealer, he said the 8a is not available....but I get the feeling he just wanted to sell me the 500 dollar pump he had on the shelf. Anyone have any other Fass contacts??
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Postby FlyboyDVIII » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:39 am

flysurge wrote:spoke to a Fass dealer, he said the 8a is not available....but I get the feeling he just wanted to sell me the 500 dollar pump he had on the shelf. Anyone have any other Fass contacts??


I believe you should then go directly to the Fass, "Diesel Performance Products " the 8a lists for 275 the 23a lists for 375, Golden fuel will ship you a 23A pump for something like $376.25, ask them to have DPP drop ship you a 8A, they had DPP drop ship directly to me MY 23A .

If you need their mount or wire harness that will be extra. I made my mount and had harnes in place already, I just cut the connector from the FASS and Wired it in. I clamped the motor to a mount I made, their aluminum mount clamps the motor also. :D
93, F250, 7.3, N/A, WVO since 5-06 over 147K so far, 2wd, ext cab, 100 gal. tank, DIY system. 10psi 23A FASS w/ ProComp regulator.

FilterFuge FF60 CF, over 22,300 gal. spun
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Postby VegMeister » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:54 am

coachgeo wrote:
Welder wrote:... the valveless/Veggiestroke system can work on any diesel, not just Powerstrokes.
Welder do you know of a link to a thread or advertisement anywhere that gives a plumbing example of the valveless/V.Stroke system?



I have a valveless system that allows for return to diesel tank, return to veg tank, and looped. And it is VERY simple. It's discussed in this thread
centralvalleybiodiesel CF
1993 GMC Sierra K2500 6.5L + homebuilt veg kit, OEM glowplug failure (update: rebuilt with a 6.2 block, working fine)
1988 Ford 6.9L OEM dual tank, 90+% veg oil blend.
1989 Ford 7.3L, 80+% veg oil blend.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:20 am

flysurge wrote:was going to use this setup as sunwizard but with a three return valve, one for veg, one for diesel, and one for a loop. mercedes diesel.


You don't need a "3 return" with the diagram I posted. When running on VO, its looped, and when you turn off the VO pump and turn on the D2 pump, it is return to VO tank. Then once the VO is purged, you switch the return to D2 tank. I think this is the simplest 2 pump system.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby flysurge » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:05 pm

Hi Sun,

how are you purging air out of the veg side? That the reasons for the veg ret line.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:17 pm

I have never had any air problems. After a filter change when there can be a little air, I start on diesel, switch to VO, with return still set to D2, and if it stumbles, switch back to D2 before it dies. This returns any air to the D2 tank. If it doesn't stumble, no air, and I switch the return to VO, looped.

This is the same steps you would do after a filter change with a "3 return" except sending the air to the VO tank instead of D2 tank.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SkySkiJason » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:25 am

I have been using a stock-type PSD (replacement) fuel pump. It is easily capable of 80psi - dunno who else needs that. It is suceptable to polymerization death because the fuel is in contact with the copper inards of the pump motor. Mine may have only survived this long due to blending some diesel/bio-d w/all my VO (unheated tank and cold weather) and using a VO fuel stabilizer (prevents poly...)

I just posted this chicken scratch in another thread, sorry for the double post... its not unlike SunWizard's... I would put the filters after the pumps and HIH all VO lines and prolly a FPHE just before CV on VO line.

Image
2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges, DP tunes - Single-Shot injectors! Vegistroke-style WVO conversion, 55,000 VO miles so far - 190 deg VO before the heads
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