electric fuel pumps

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby Adam » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:18 pm

I'm using the Facet POSI-FLO 60106 for pushing cold WVO, $70 from NAPA.
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Postby Welder » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:15 pm

Hi Adam.

How long has your Facet been pushing cold veg?
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Postby BMW Fan » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:34 pm

I am runnung a 4-7 psi Facet for 2 years in our BMW 324 td Touring.
Driven daily most of the time.
Purrs like a cat and is well worth the money

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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:51 am

Klaus, since you're our resident European SVO expert, maybe you could help me.

It's no secret that an in-line IP is usually stronger than a rotary IP. That's one reason why people love the older Mercedes for SVO use.

In North America Chevy, and GMC have "cheaped out" with rotary IPs, while Dodge has (until recently) stayed with an in-line Bosch IP.

Do you know if there are any North American, European, or Asian made vehicles sold into the N.A. market that still use an in-line style IP?

Jettas use rotary IPs.

The 24 valve Dodge Cummins use rotary IPs (VP44).

Ford has gone to the Powerstroke system (4000PSI gear style lift pump/IP + HEUI injectors).

WHO CURRENTLY SELLS DIESEL VEHICLES IN N.A.WITH IN-LINE IPs?

Does BMW import vehicles with in-line IPs? What about Volvo?

(These questions aren't only for Klaus. If anyone reading along knows of a decent quality domestic or import that comes with an in-line IP, please chime in with you're input!!!)
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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:53 am

Oops!! I almost forgot:

What about the Indian Mahindra import pickups soon to arrive: Are they rotary IP equipped, or in-line?
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Postby Burbarian » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:30 am

Stronger might not always be better though. As IPs are primarily damaged by improperly processed fuel, then a stronger IP per-se does not 'buy you much' if you exercise good fuel processing procedure. As well, the Stanadyne rotary IPs used in Chevy/GMC 6.2 & 6.5, as well as Ford 6.9 & 7.3 are as you mentioned, less expensive than an equivalent inline IP. You can get rebuilt DB2 rotary IPs for less than $300, whereas inlines typically cost considerably more. If your fuel is good, the IP should be ok. If the fuel is not so good, an inline will last longer, but it is still accumulating damage, and will eventually need replacement at a much higher cost.

Of course, if you can get an inline-IP equipped vehicle to start with, then I agree completely. By all means, get it. It is a more robust pump!
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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:39 am

Burbarian wrote:Stronger might not always be better though. As IPs are primarily damaged by improperly processed fuel, then a stronger IP per-se does not 'buy you much' if you exercise good fuel processing procedure. As well, the Stanadyne rotary IPs used in Chevy/GMC 6.2 & 6.5, as well as Ford 6.9 & 7.3 are as you mentioned, less expensive than an equivalent inline IP. You can get rebuilt DB2 rotary IPs for less than $300, whereas inlines typically cost considerably more. If your fuel is good, the IP should be ok. If the fuel is not so good, an inline will last longer, but it is still accumulating damage, and will eventually need replacement at a much higher cost.

Of course, if you can get an inline-IP equipped vehicle to start with, then I agree completely. By all means, get it. It is a more robust pump!


Thanks for your input Burb.

I agree that fuel quality is a critical component of proper SVO fuelling technique.

The reason I appear to be veering somewhat off topic is related to rotary IP design and is actually on-topic. You'll see later.
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:43 am

No current model vehicles use an inline IP, they have all gone electronic with computer controls around 1998 so they can meet emissions standards.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:50 am

Burbarian wrote:If your fuel is good, the IP should be ok.

I disagree, in the case of the stanadyne IP, you can have perfectly good fuel and still shear the shaft if the temperature of the fuel and IP are not right. And there is no consensus I have seen yet on what temps the IP and fuel need to be at to prevent the frequent failures of them, but it appears having them both pre-warmed before switchover is the method being tested currently.

Other IPs such as the 98.5-2001 Dodge cummins get quickly destroyed by having below 5psi pressure feeding them. No matter how good your fuel, even on D2.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Burbarian » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:45 pm

Of course. I had assumed as a matter of course that the d2 and vo were preheated as per current recommended best practice. Good call. You possibly saved new/careless forum readers a few IPs in the next few years from my careless remark. :)
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Postby BMW Fan » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:11 pm

Hi Jeff,

since you addressed me I owe you an answer.
As Sun already said there are no new vehicles sold with inline IP’s.
Volvo uses VW Diesel engines, so they are rotary
All my BMW’s are equipped with BOSCH rotary pumps.
I never, ever had a pump failure.
You may read my report (it was in 2001 ) on infopop about my trip from Nova Scotia to Florida and back in one week. Something like 7000 km.
The car was my SINGLE TANK BMW 524 TD.
Only a reckless driver was able to stop the incredible performance of this car in 2004.
IMHO the BOSCH rotary pumps are VO safe.
I do not want endlessly to repeat the steps necessary .

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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:30 pm

SunWizard wrote:
Burbarian wrote:If your fuel is good, the IP should be ok.

I disagree, in the case of the stanadyne IP, you can have perfectly good fuel and still shear the shaft if the temperature of the fuel and IP are not right. And there is no consensus I have seen yet on what temps the IP and fuel need to be at to prevent the frequent failures of them, but it appears having them both pre-warmed before switchover is the method being tested currently.

Other IPs such as the 98.5-2001 Dodge cummins get quickly destroyed by having below 5psi pressure feeding them. No matter how good your fuel, even on D2.


Fuel temperature is the main "quality" related to running SVO. I know you meant stuff like water and particle contamination, but since we all know that any diesel engine running SVO should be up to full operating temp prior to switchover< I think that fuel temp is insinuated into overall fuel quality. No heat, no SVO.
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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:43 pm

BMW Fan wrote:Hi Jeff,

since you addressed me I owe you an answer.
As Sun already said there are no new vehicles sold with inline IP’s.
Volvo uses VW Diesel engines, so they are rotary
All my BMW’s are equipped with BOSCH rotary pumps.
I never, ever had a pump failure.
You may read my report (it was in 2001 ) on infopop about my trip from Nova Scotia to Florida and back in one week. Something like 7000 km.
The car was my SINGLE TANK BMW 524 TD.
Only a reckless driver was able to stop the incredible performance of this car in 2004.
IMHO the BOSCH rotary pumps are VO safe.
I do not want endlessly to repeat the steps necessary .

Klaus


Thanks for the reply, Klaus.

The only reason that I addressed you directly, is that I know you are a very experienced SVO user AND fairly knowledgeable about european diesel imports. There are other diesel experts here on this forum, but they may not have the experience you have, or the knowledge of European diesels.

I'm happy to hear of your success with rotary IPs. Over on infopop, High Compression II is another experienced European SVO user (British) who has had good success with European rotary IPs. He has found that pre-heating rotary IPs by running ALL fuel through a FPHE seems to have prevented the kind of "thermal shock" some SVO users have had while using rotary IP equipped vehicles.
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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:07 pm

Okay, guys, here's why I have been babbling OT about IPs on a lift pump thread:

I've heard that Stanadyne DB2 IPs have an internal rotary vane lift pump that ramps up pressure prior to the actual final pressurising pump. I've also heard that these rotary vane lift pumps are intended to be supported by a properly functioning lift pump. On my F-250, that's a mechanically actuated diaphragm pump. Sunwizards Cummins uses a strong little mechanically actuated piston style lift pump to feed fuel to his in-line IP.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can verify whether the DB2 actually has an internal rotary vane lift pump, or not. From what I've heard, these second IP internal lift pumps really need adequate fuel pressure supplied to them, or else damage can result.

If the DB2 DOES have an IP internal vane lift pump, what about other rotary IPs? Do Lucas rotary IPs have them? Do Bosch rotaries have them?
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Postby BMW Fan » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:02 am

Sorry that I misplaced my answer,

Yes , all rotary pumps have the low pressure pump built in.

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