electric fuel pumps

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:22 am

New thread on rotary IPs started here:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about132.html
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:27 pm

Ok, back to electric lift pumps. Any recommendations for hot vo use? I read that the FASS is well regarded, but rather expensive. The lowest price I've been able to locate thus far is $275. Any other recommended pumps?
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Postby flysurge » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:01 pm

where did you get that price? if you dont ming me asking.. Id rather pay that once , than 75 4 times.
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:33 pm

Flysurge,

Found that $275 price here:
http://www.boyercustomtruck.com/index.a ... rodID=5879

Note that I have no relation to that vendor, never heard of them before, and don't know if they are any good.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:41 pm

When I go there it says $325 and add $50 core charge, who is going to have a core for a FASS?
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Burbarian » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:54 pm

My screen shows this:


(Larger View)

# Part: RP-1002-HPFP
# MFG: FASS
EM-1001 w/335gear (HPFP Fuel Pump)

Price $275.00

Quantity: 1

Product Options
Core Charge


Perhaps you are getting the price with the core charge already included?

Here is another merchant selling for $261:
http://www.moonlightdiesel.com/store/f. ... -pump.html
http://www.moonlightdiesel.com/store/f. ... -pump.html
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Postby Welder » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:47 am

Wow Burb, that's amazing! Those guys at Moonlight must be buying enormous quantities to sell a FASS for $261.
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Holley Blue

Postby sanderlings » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:36 am

The paragraph below is some information I posted back in August '07, and am happy to report that after about 10,000 miles, the little buzzer is still doing fine. The Holley Red (Stock) on the diesel side works well too. How long it will last remains to be seen. When it craps out, I will probably buy a gear pump. But just in case anybody has one lying around or can get one cheap it might be an option for you. The alteration takes about fifteen minutes.

"I have been using a Holley Blue (Rotor vane type) as a WVO lift pump. I would not recommend it, but I am throwing this out there because there may be others with a dusty rotor vane pumps on the shelf that did not pump the WVO well. When I tried it new, it would not move WVO that was colder than about 80 - 100F I think. It moved diesel fine though. So before giving up on it I took the four vanes out and cut horizontal grooves on the sides with a belt sander. That didn't help, so I took them out again and notched the top, bottom and side that rides the pump chamber wall. That did the trick and it has been humming away since at exactly 9 PSI (Even under load) which is what I set the regulator at. I took them out again after about 3,000 miles to see if the chamber wall was being scored but it seemed to be smooth. My thinking was to reduce the drag of the vanes through the WVO and give it a kind of internal bypass. I wouldn't suggest buying a new one and doing this, but if you have one already that you gave up on, it might be worth a shot. So far so good for mine."
todd
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Postby Burbarian » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:45 pm

What about a Walbro FRB-5 / GSS342? Anybody know if these any good pumping hot vo?
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autozone fuel pumps

Postby sacveggieguy » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:26 pm

Anyone use the autozone fuel pumps John at Fattywagons or Rich at Greasekings use. You can buy them 4 about 50 bucks And I know John used them on his own ride .

Thanks Paul aka Sacveggieguy
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Postby Welder » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:05 am

Burbarian wrote:What about a Walbro FRB-5 / GSS342? Anybody know if these any good pumping hot vo?


Read:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 2781013222
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Re: autozone fuel pumps

Postby Welder » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:14 am

sacveggieguy wrote:Anyone use the autozone fuel pumps John at Fattywagons or Rich at Greasekings use. You can buy them 4 about 50 bucks And I know John used them on his own ride .

Thanks Paul aka Sacveggieguy


Because I plan to use Veggiestroke/valveless style plumbing on my conversion, I will need two 12 Volt pumps. I just bought a Master E8012S from Napa for $78.37 I will feed a 90%ULSD/10%WVO blend through a FPHE up to mt 7.3

I know they can be bought cheaper down in the states at places like autozone etc. I'm not sure if The American Napa outlets will sell them to you guys cheaper than what I paid or not.

The Master E8012S is a solenoid piston pump like a Facet, or a Walbro. Of course, they all claim to be the best, and I've heard good and bad about all of them, but I think how they are plumbed might make a big difference in how well they work and how long they last.
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Postby Burbarian » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:53 am

We baby our IPs like they are fragile porcelain.
For twin-tankers, specially with rotary IPs, current 'best practice' tells us:
Never start on veg.
Never EVER start on COLD veg
Never put in hot veg when its not warmed up first with hot d2.
Monitor IP overflow temp to ensure it's warmed up enough before switching.
Lube up the d2 with additives.
Never shut down on vo. Purge with d2 first before shutdown.
Feed it only clean, 2 micron filtered, totally dewatered fuel.
Then MAYBE it will not die a premature death.

So what are we asking our electric lift pumps to do?
We start it on cold veg.
We don't warm it up at all.
We never flush it with d2.
We ask it to suck thick cold fuel all the way from the tank, which could easily be 15ft worth of hose, then still have enough grunt to push that thick gooey crud through a fine filter, BEFORE heating said thick fuel to near d2 viscosity level with an FPHE.
Most run it before the filter. That means all the grit, crud, etc that we would never dream of feeding to our IP, we ask the lift pump to handle without getting long term abrasive damage.
We want it to pump oil at boiling water temperature when looped.
For hours at a time, day after day for years. Something no commercial automotive lift pump that I know of was ever designed to do.
We shut it down full of vo, that could thicken and solidify in its innards.
We leave it perpetually full of vo that is probably doing slow nasty things to said metal innards.
Then we expect it to fire up the next day, and to keep working for years.
Heck, if it doesn't last 3 years we think it's a bad pump.

Am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this philosophy and state of affairs?

I mean, if IPs were as easy and comparatively inexpensive to acquire in various after-market flavours that you could just bolt on, would we even think of heating and filtering and dewatering what we feed it? Or would we apply the same philosophy to it that we do for lift pumps? ie, brute force bigger, more expensive, higher pressure, and consider them as expendable throw-away items?

I think, for many of us, yes. Just get a bigger, meaner IP and use a brute force sledgehammer to the problem. If we could feed our cars straight WVO out of the dumpster and not worry about the IP, then we'd all probably be talking about injection line high pressure filters and heaters, as the combustion chamber is the next item in line that will be unhappy with bad fuel.

Which makes sense, to a point. Afterall, we are trying to run the things on a fuel it was never designed to use. Yes, the original engine invented by Rudolph was designed for peanut oil, but what about the thing under your hood/bonnet? I rather doubt 'vegetable oil' ever seriously crossed the minds of the IP designers when they originally blueprinted your IP.

The point I am getting at is: Perhaps it is time to look at making a lift pump's ridiculously hard life a little bit easier? At the very least, a basic pre-filter before the LP and some decent heating of the veg before we ask it to pump the stuff. A heated pump head with a cooled motor would be nice as well. We coax the IP to push a fuel it was not designed for, perhaps we could do the same to the lift pump.
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Lift Pump Rights

Postby sanderlings » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:13 am

Burbarian, you are right! Lift Pumps have rights! I think we need a National organization to protect them! Or at least do the things you suggest. Good points. Can't you just see one of the pump engineers looking over his glasses saying, "You want it to pump what?" I have a few of your suggestions installed because my pump won't move WVO that has sat overnight in subfreezing weather. My lift pump is mounted on the frame rail. I opened up the HOH bundle, and as the fuel line routes up into the pump, the coolant lines run just under the pump housing. I wrapped the pump housing and coolant lines in insulation and the motor sticks out the top of the bundle into the air flow. The coolant warms it up pretty fast and I don't loop, so I don't think it gets too hot. But that is just going by feeling it a few times. I put a little see-thru filter in with the HOH going back to the tank. And as careful as I think I am with preparing the oil, I am surprised to see all the stuff it picks up before the pump. I did go in and inspect the inside of the pump after about 3,000 miles I think, and all the stainless looked brand new. As far as flushing, I don't use check valves on the WVO side so with dual pumps you can just flip on the diesel pump (Engine off) and open the manual WVO valve and the whole WVO side can be back-flushed with diesel. I have never bothered to do it though, except to prime the pump. It has plenty of push and needs a regulator to keep the pressure down where I want it ... so far.
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Postby jordanmills » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:42 am

Already tried a system with a pump that would start up and shut down on d2, and only switched over when the wvo was hot. It wasn't happy.
2001 F-250 (7.3 L PSD)
2-tank custom/self-built SVO system
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