electric fuel pumps

For discussing the modifications needed for diesel vehicles to run with 2 tank veggie oil conversions.

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Postby Burbarian » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:54 am

Could you give specifics as your setup and make/model of pump used? Thanks.
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Postby jordanmills » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:56 am

Stock psd fuel pump, and the autozone replacement (rated at 55 gpm @ 100 psi)
2001 F-250 (7.3 L PSD)
2-tank custom/self-built SVO system
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Postby Burbarian » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:05 am

So the replacement pump is happier starting and pumping thick cold veg rather than d2?
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Postby SunWizard » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:11 am

Here is the place to see and discuss the details of his rig:
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/about104.html
Last edited by SunWizard on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Welder » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:54 am

Burbarian wrote:We baby our IPs like they are fragile porcelain.
For twin-tankers, specially with rotary IPs, current 'best practice' tells us:
Never start on veg.
Never EVER start on COLD veg
Never put in hot veg when its not warmed up first with hot d2.
Monitor IP overflow temp to ensure it's warmed up enough before switching.
Lube up the d2 with additives.
Never shut down on vo. Purge with d2 first before shutdown.
Feed it only clean, 2 micron filtered, totally dewatered fuel.
Then MAYBE it will not die a premature death.

So what are we asking our electric lift pumps to do?
We start it on cold veg.
We don't warm it up at all.
We never flush it with d2.
We ask it to suck thick cold fuel all the way from the tank, which could easily be 15ft worth of hose, then still have enough grunt to push that thick gooey crud through a fine filter, BEFORE heating said thick fuel to near d2 viscosity level with an FPHE.
Most run it before the filter. That means all the grit, crud, etc that we would never dream of feeding to our IP, we ask the lift pump to handle without getting long term abrasive damage.
We want it to pump oil at boiling water temperature when looped.
For hours at a time, day after day for years. Something no commercial automotive lift pump that I know of was ever designed to do.
We shut it down full of vo, that could thicken and solidify in its innards.
We leave it perpetually full of vo that is probably doing slow nasty things to said metal innards.
Then we expect it to fire up the next day, and to keep working for years.
Heck, if it doesn't last 3 years we think it's a bad pump.

Am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this philosophy and state of affairs?

I mean, if IPs were as easy and comparatively inexpensive to acquire in various after-market flavours that you could just bolt on, would we even think of heating and filtering and dewatering what we feed it? Or would we apply the same philosophy to it that we do for lift pumps? ie, brute force bigger, more expensive, higher pressure, and consider them as expendable throw-away items?

I think, for many of us, yes. Just get a bigger, meaner IP and use a brute force sledgehammer to the problem. If we could feed our cars straight WVO out of the dumpster and not worry about the IP, then we'd all probably be talking about injection line high pressure filters and heaters, as the combustion chamber is the next item in line that will be unhappy with bad fuel.

Which makes sense, to a point. Afterall, we are trying to run the things on a fuel it was never designed to use. Yes, the original engine invented by Rudolph was designed for peanut oil, but what about the thing under your hood/bonnet? I rather doubt 'vegetable oil' ever seriously crossed the minds of the IP designers when they originally blueprinted your IP.

The point I am getting at is: Perhaps it is time to look at making a lift pump's ridiculously hard life a little bit easier? At the very least, a basic pre-filter before the LP and some decent heating of the veg before we ask it to pump the stuff. A heated pump head with a cooled motor would be nice as well. We coax the IP to push a fuel it was not designed for, perhaps we could do the same to the lift pump.




Geez, Burb! That was so beautifully touching it nearly brought tears to my eyes!

I'm with Sanderlings! Let's form a Lift Pump Protectorate! We'll call it "The Pump Posse" just to sound cool, and we'll get mean looking back patches for our leather jackets too. LOL

Anyway, back to reality...

Yes, pre-heating the pump head and cooling the motor make perfect sense. In fact, those are some of the things I wanted to try on the Frankenpump. I'm not sure if it will be necessary to do both measures, but testing will tell. The prefilter point is well noted too.

For my pump project, I've even got a 4th measure to prolong the pumps working life, but I'm not sure if it's patentable, so I can't publicise it yet. After prototype testing if it performs as it should, I'll do a basic search for prior art.



P.S. I like your valveless lift pump design. It's pretty groovy.
"Is there anybody out there?"

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Postby Burbarian » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:53 am

Welder,
Thanks for the comments and the link to Infopop's discussion on the Walbro.
I was hoping to find comments from users on reliability. It looks like a good pump to sleeve with a water jacket.

On pump longevity, was thinking of an alternative 2-pump design where the d2 pump pushes through a 'T' between the vo pump and the vo filter, with the filter downstream and capped with a check valve. On startup, the d2 pump pulls through its own filter and pushes d2 through the vo pump into an FPHE then to the IP. The overflow is split with imbalanced check valves. On switchover, the vo pump pulls through its heated vo filter to the FPHE with the loop going back to just before the vo filter. On purge, the d2 pump flushes the vo pump with diesel and pushes all the vo through the FPHE and back to the vo tank. Will need 2 nc/no 2-way valves, so 4 active components. But it preheats the vo pump with warm overflow d2, and flushes it with d2 on purge.

Best wishes on your Frankenpump and plans!
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Postby Welder » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:07 am

Hi Burb.

Won't it be a lot of work (flow resistance) for the diesel pump to push ULSD (or B100) through the veggie pump?
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Postby Burbarian » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:57 pm

That particular brainfart occurred when I looked at the specs of an $85 Walbro 255LPH HP pump. It's rated up to 50gph at 80psi.

Just exploring various options. Rapidly filled a notebook with various sketches for different systems. I've found it useful to do brain dumps to paper. Sketch out various ideas, no matter how silly they may be on first pass. Then go back and sift through the raw mental ore later and refine them. Often the finalized systems are composed of pieces from initially different ideas that might not otherwise have come together by itself in a single shot.
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Postby Welder » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:06 am

Burbarian wrote:That particular brainfart occurred when I looked at the specs of an $85 Walbro 255LPH HP pump. It's rated up to 50gph at 80psi.

Just exploring various options. Rapidly filled a notebook with various sketches for different systems. I've found it useful to do brain dumps to paper. Sketch out various ideas, no matter how silly they may be on first pass. Then go back and sift through the raw mental ore later and refine them. Often the finalized systems are composed of pieces from initially different ideas that might not otherwise have come together by itself in a single shot.



Brainstorming, it's called. (works great!)
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Postby zoochy » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:08 am

I prefer to call it brainfarting.
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Postby Welder » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:08 pm

zoochy wrote:I prefer to call it brainfarting.


Usually a "brainfart" means an error in judgement. I suppose if the brain fart were windy enough it could be considered to be a brainstorm.
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Postby roverhybrids » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:33 pm

For clarification on the FASS/HPFP pumps and pricing.
the EM-1001(8amp) motor w/335 gear is RP-1002-HPFP@10psi is MAP(minimum price) is $261.25.
the EM-1002(23amp) motor w/335 gear is RP-1004-HPFP@ XXpsi. is MAP at 356.25

Commonly everyone buying a pump will also want the mounting bracket and the lead wires/ or a relay wire harness.

caution *spam* following :twisted:

I will give anyone calling to order a FASS pump free shipping if they mention BurnVeg.com

Shane
www.roverhybrids.com
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Postby rkpatt » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:34 am

Welder / Bubarian - I am with you on those Standyne IP . After many months, I finally got around to replacing the dead IP ( snapped shaft/sized head ) Stanadyne DB2 rotary IP on my 1994 F250 7.3 IDI NA .

I will be going though my WVO system ( draining tank, purging everything, and installing filters and am considering installing a more robust pump than the Airtex E8102S I have been using .

I have considered putting a second one inline as a "booster" or even using a Shurflo 12v sprayer pump that I already have .
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Postby Welder » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:29 am

roverhybrids wrote:For clarification on the FASS/HPFP pumps and pricing.
the EM-1001(8amp) motor w/335 gear is RP-1002-HPFP@10psi is MAP(minimum price) is $261.25.
the EM-1002(23amp) motor w/335 gear is RP-1004-HPFP@ XXpsi. is MAP at 356.25

Commonly everyone buying a pump will also want the mounting bracket and the lead wires/ or a relay wire harness.

caution *spam* following :twisted:

I will give anyone calling to order a FASS pump free shipping if they mention BurnVeg.com

Shane
www.roverhybrids.com


Shane, what PSI does "XX" represent? The 23 Amp unit shows XX PSI.
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Postby Welder » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:35 am

rkpatt wrote:Welder / Bubarian - I am with you on those Standyne IP . After many months, I finally got around to replacing the dead IP ( snapped shaft/sized head ) Stanadyne DB2 rotary IP on my 1994 F250 7.3 IDI NA .

I will be going though my WVO system ( draining tank, purging everything, and installing filters and am considering installing a more robust pump than the Airtex E8102S I have been using .

I have considered putting a second one inline as a "booster" or even using a Shurflo 12v sprayer pump that I already have .


Wasn't your IP failure from running hot veg into an inadequately preheated IP?

I agree that having adequate PSI of veg being fed into your IP is important, but maybe a guage would help verify the need for a meatier pump. I'm betting that the E8012 will be sluggish with warm veg, but perk up higher PSI when the veg temp rises.

I'm not trying to discourage you from a stronger pump, but remember to "share" BOTH fuels through a FPHE near your IP for a solid IP preheat! No more snapped shafts!
"Is there anybody out there?"

Roger Waters
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