WVO motorcycle

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WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:27 pm

I'm so glad to have found this forum and I hope to receive help and to eventually be able to help others. Thank you for doing this work.

I'm new to the WVO world but I'm already hooked. For the past year I've be planning and building a WVO motorcycle for an environmental art project and I've finally reached the point where I need to finalize the fuel components and I need help. I've installed a 3 cylinder Kubota engine, a D622 in a chopper frame. Two steel tanks are awaiting the fittings to connect to the engine but I'm now a bit confused about several issues and I need some advice. I'm using an electric fuel pump and I don't fully understand how to prevent the grease tank from contaminating the clean tank. I built a heat exchanger that will use the coolant to warm the WVO fuel before entering the fuel pump but I have not enough amps, (the alternator puts out 45amps, the spal fan draws 19amps) to run an electric heating element for the tank so I wonder how to deal with the WVO congealing in the tank? My plan before I read much of anything was to wait for the engine to reach temp, ( when the fan came on) and then open the grease tank side...all was well in my mind until I realized I would need a fuel return on both sides of the tanks! How do you prevent air from being sucked into the system when you change over and run the grease out? Anyway...I guess you can see where I am in the learning curve.

If anyone has any advice so that I can finish this project I would very much appreciate any help. Thank you, Lynn

P.S. I've yet to put the bottoms on the tanks so I can still make modifications to the tanks. Obviously space is an issue.
lynn
 
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Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby SunWizard » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:01 pm

Drawing a diagram helps the most. Most use a coolant heated pickup in the tank. You don't need a return on the WVO tank since looped is the best way to run. No air gets in since diesel is what purges the WVO out.
See how I did it in the Veggie Oil Conversion Vehicle Database 1995 Dodge Cummins 4x4 WVO conversion, FPHE, 3 valves where the basic diagram and most of the ideas may help.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:55 pm

Hi SunWizard,

Thanks so much for the reply I had already scanned your previous post but I'll study it closely now. I'm looking for a place to buy my tank heater...the place I found-- vegpower is closed on some kind of restructuring.Do you think it would work to silver soldier a 1 inch copper pipe into my tank along the bottom and then out the sides to use for the heating element? Do you think I need a heated filter?...I'm worried about having enough power...my alternator is putting out 45amps and my fan is using 19...Can't wait to fire this thing up!!

Thanks again, Lynn
lynn
 
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Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby SunWizard » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:46 pm

lynn wrote:Do you think it would work to silver soldier a 1 inch copper pipe into my tank along the bottom and then out the sides to use for the heating element?

Too much heat loss if its soldered to it, better is a loop of aluminum coolant tube around the pickup with minimal contact with the tank, see mine. How much heat is needed depends on climate and oil type.
Do you think I need a heated filter?

A heated filter can be as simple as looping a rubber coolant line around it as I did, and it is worth it if you want to run below 25F. If your climate is always above that, a FPHE may be all the heat that's needed.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:54 pm

Thanks...I just read the whole 17 pages..very interesting. Now I'm worried about my electric pump.. like it might fail...? Should I have gotten the mechanical pump? I live in Florida but I'm planning on riding across the country....but not in cold weather! Sounds I might not need to heat the tank...just the WVO before the injectors. Tomorrow I'm going to take pictures of what I have so far and read the post again then I'll know what I still don't understand. You are great SunWizard!Thank you!!!

TOmorrow!
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:32 am

Hi, It is not clear to me how to upload photos here so I'll have to have a friend help me with that this weekend.

Anyway...I think I understand for the most part how the system works but because I'm working on a motorcycle I have some questions. Here they are:

My fuel port into the engine is 5/16" ...I suppose I will need to buy smaller 3way valves and hoses than the ones you have specd to fit my lines or can I reduce the hoses at the inlet point?
My return pipe out of the engine is only 3/16" ....really small--- too small?! I currently have no filters on the engine...should I use a separate filter for the clean side?
Can I also loop the clean diesel side or must I have that one line go back to the tank for air bleeding...?
How do you remember to open and close that loop valve so that you don't contaminate your tank? I can just see myself doing that!
Should I make it possible to bypass my heat exchanger so that the WVO doesn't overheat? My tank will only hold about 1 gallon and I'll be riding long distances at one time?
Am I going to have problems with my electric fuel pump...should I go ahead and get the mechanical pump that goes on the engine?
What size should the opening be on the motorcycle gas tank? Typically it is a 3/8" pipe thread from the bottom of the tank with a petcock with a strainer attached. Can I use this system or should I go bigger on the WVO tank?
When you say: "use aluminum tube around the pick up tube" Are you indicating that the tank oil will need to be heated at least at this point? Do you think I will need to run the fuel lines on the WVO side from the top of the tank rather than from the bottom to provide for this heating?
The engine exhaust manifold is just below the WVO tank....if I made some kind of retractable copper arm that could come up from the exhaust manifold and touch the bottom of the tank...would this be a good way to heat up my tank fuel when I first start up...then I could retract this arm when the fuel was warm...what do you think?

Do I need to be able to pressurize my WVO tank somehow like the way you did yours with the air valve?

I have to have the police inspect my motorcycle after I finish the build to get it registered, are they going to pass me with the WVO system or tell me that I can't use it because of fuel tax/highway tax issues...should I dismantle the WVO for the inspection?

This is a lot..sorry to have so many questions! I thank you for any advice you can offer, I could not do this without your help.

Thanks, Lynn
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby SunWizard » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:09 am

lynn wrote:Hi, It is not clear to me how to upload photos here so I'll have to have a friend help me with that this weekend.

Use the upload attachment button right below the submit button.
Anyway...I think I understand for the most part how the system works but because I'm working on a motorcycle I have some questions.

It works the exact same on a motorcycle.
My fuel port into the engine is 5/16" ...I suppose I will need to buy smaller 3way valves and hoses than the ones you have specd to fit my lines or can I reduce the hoses at the inlet point?

Buy whatever size hose barbs you want, on a 3/8 valve, use 5/16.
My return pipe out of the engine is only 3/16" ....really small--- too small?

Thats fine.
I currently have no filters on the engine...should I use a separate filter for the clean side?
Yes you shouldn't share filters. I don't know what you mean clean side, your fuel should be clean everywhere.
Can I also loop the clean diesel side or must I have that one line go back to the tank for air bleeding...?

Correct.
How do you remember to open and close that loop valve so that you don't contaminate your tank? I can just see myself doing that!
You only turn it shortly after you turn the other valves, hopefully you can remember for a few seconds.
Should I make it possible to bypass my heat exchanger so that the WVO doesn't overheat? My tank will only hold about 1 gallon and I'll be riding long distances at one time?

No, coolant won't ever overheat it.
Am I going to have problems with my electric fuel pump...should I go ahead and get the mechanical pump that goes on the engine?

That depends on how well designed each style is, I can't tell without studying them.
What size should the opening be on the motorcycle gas tank? Typically it is a 3/8" pipe thread from the bottom of the tank with a petcock with a strainer attached. Can I use this system or should I go bigger on the WVO tank?

That should be fine for the flow rate you have.
When you say: "use aluminum tube around the pick up tube" Are you indicating that the tank oil will need to be heated at least at this point? Do you think I will need to run the fuel lines on the WVO side from the top of the tank rather than from the bottom to provide for this heating?

Depends on temps as stated above. Above 25F, just a FPHE would be enough, no tank or filter heat. Bottom or top doesn't matter.
The engine exhaust manifold is just below the WVO tank....if I made some kind of retractable copper arm that could come up from the exhaust manifold and touch the bottom of the tank...would this be a good way to heat up my tank fuel when I first start up...then I could retract this arm when the fuel was warm...what do you think?

No exhaust heat varies way too much and gets too hot.
Do I need to be able to pressurize my WVO tank somehow like the way you did yours with the air valve?

No.
I have to have the police inspect my motorcycle after I finish the build to get it registered, are they going to pass me with the WVO system or tell me that I can't use it because of fuel tax/highway tax issues...should I dismantle the WVO for the inspection?

Depends on where you are. I would leave it and only mention it if they ask. What is probably harder to pass is the emissions requirements in the USA, and thats why they all come with diesel particulate filters since 2007.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:37 am

Fantastic!!! THank you so much. I'm going to check online for that heat exchanger you have...and I'll try to upload some pictures...esp. of my homemade heat exchanger to see what you think of that...?

Whoever you are, you are very generous. If everyone shared what they knew we would have a different world....thanks again..I'll try to send some stuff tonight..Lynn
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:27 pm

Here are the first three...(So sorry these are turned sideways - I cannot figure out why it's doing that. Can you tell me how to upload photos without it turning them? They were shot with the camera upright, so I just don't get it.)

As I mentioned in one of the photos, the outlet from the WVO tank is not 3/8 size pipe. It is 5/16 fuel line. Will this be large enough for the WVO?

What do you think of the electric pump for the fuel and the homemade heat exchanger? I looked online and found some FPHEs but I didn't see any with 1-inch inlets for the coolant or my size fuel line. Will it matter if I constrict the radiator hose to go into one of these commercially-available FPHEs? Or should the in and out of the coolant remain at 1-inch?

Do you have any recommendations on how many plates I need for my FPHE? I notice you're using 26 but as you know, size is an issue for me. What do you think?

Thank you for your help -

Lynn
Attachments
photo(12).JPG
This is a shot of the 3/16" fuel return.
photo(12).JPG (47.24 KiB) Viewed 1225 times
photo(11).JPG
This is a shot of the 5/16-inch fuel "in" line
photo(11).JPG (41.36 KiB) Viewed 1225 times
photo(10).JPG
This is a shot of the Kubota engine in the motorcycle frame with tanks on top.
photo(10).JPG (46.4 KiB) Viewed 1225 times
Last edited by lynn on Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:33 pm

and next 3...
Attachments
photo(15).JPG
Here is a shot of the electric fuel pump. It was about $100. If price is a measure of quality..?
photo(15).JPG (42.41 KiB) Viewed 1225 times
photo(14).JPG
Here is a closeup of the heat exchanger with 1-inch copper pipe at each end to receive my 1-inch radiator hose.
photo(14).JPG (27.41 KiB) Viewed 1225 times
photo(13).JPG
In this photo, you can see the homemade heat exchanger which is about 10 inches long with 3 loops of copper tube on the inside for the fuel, silver soldered. One Kubota diesel filter, and the motorcycle petcock with a strainer. I made a mistake - the outlet from the motorcycle tank is 3/8-inch pipe thread, but the fuel line tube is 5/16.
photo(13).JPG (30.63 KiB) Viewed 1225 times
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby SunWizard » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:32 am

lynn wrote:It is 5/16 fuel line. Will this be large enough for the WVO?

Yes.
What do you think of the electric pump for the fuel and the homemade heat exchanger?

Looks like the weak kind of pump, but it should work for a while. That heat exchanger might work but the only way to tell would be try it and measure the temp at the outlet, should be > 160F.
I looked online and found some FPHEs but I didn't see any with 1-inch inlets for the coolant or my size fuel line. Will it matter if I constrict the radiator hose to go into one of these commercially-available FPHEs?
No problem.
Do you have any recommendations on how many plates I need for my FPHE?

12 should be plenty for that small engine, and provide 10x the heat of a homemade one, and in a smaller area.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:36 am

Thanks SunWizard for the comments. Do you have any recommendations for a good electric fuel pump? I'm not sure I have room for the mechanical pump..the place where the mechanical pump would attach to the engine is really close to the motorcycle transmission...not sure I can get it in there!

On the return line to the diesel tank, does that line need to go into the top of the tank and drip in...or can it go in through the bottom of the tank near the petcock?
If it can go into the bottom do I need to put a one way valve on the line to prevent back flow?

Thank you, Lynn

P.S. Do you know why my photos turned sideways?
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby lynn » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:50 am

Here is the item number on Ebay for the heat exchanger I'm looking at....Item number: 230566338691 could you check it out for me if you get a chance? It looks like 3/8 pipe ....small for my coolant and large for my fuel...I can't believe this is not an issue...I want to believe because it would make life much more simple for me...but? The radiator man who made the radiator for me wanted to put in 2 inch in/outs because he said he didn't like any constriction of the flow ....I insisted that he stick with the 1" because my engine water supply is 1 inch in and out....! He didn't like that at all. I'm supposed to ride across the country on this thing....I don't want any failures of the fuel system far from home and tools...and friends most of all!!!

Thanks..Lynn
lynn
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby SunWizard » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:02 pm

3/8 is too small, most FPHE have 3/4 pipe thread (measures about 1"), which is much easier to install than the sweat fittings on the one you chose. See item 280693364735. Normally the FPHE doesn't have the entire flow of the radiator going through it, and it causes no restriction of the radiator flow no matter the port size. It goes in parallel to the radiator and only gets a portion of the flow.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Re: WVO motorcycle

Postby SunWizard » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:15 pm

lynn wrote:Thanks SunWizard for the comments. Do you have any recommendations for a good electric fuel pump?

A good mechanical is usually much stronger, cheaper and smaller than the good electric ones. I never use electric so can't recommend any, although I have read many hundreds of threads of people's failing electric pumps, even the fancy $800 ones.
On the return line to the diesel tank, does that line need to go into the top of the tank and drip in...or can it go in through the bottom of the tank near the petcock?

Anyplace thats not too close to the inlet so that any return air bubbles don't get sucked back in.
If it can go into the bottom do I need to put a one way valve on the line to prevent back flow?

No.
P.S. Do you know why my photos turned sideways?

No, are you sure they are the right way before you posted? (open them from your hard drive in a browser.)
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

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