How to build a diesel injector pop tester, big improvement!

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How to build a diesel injector pop tester, big improvement!

Postby SunWizard » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:37 pm

I pop tested, replaced, and balanced my injector nozzles, it made a large difference in power at all RPMs but especially off the line 600-2500rpm, smoothness, less smoke, and quieter at idle. And I thought it was very quiet and powerful before this!

The 87 Mercedes 300TD I recently got had service records for the last 80k miles, now at 243k. Nothing in them about injectors. So I pulled the injector nozzles, tested on my homemade pop tester, they were all near 1900psi, just below the low end of the recommended 1957psi. They sprayed a solid stream, not a fog. They were made in India bosch nozzles which I have read lots of bad things about. I replaced them with new made in Germany Monark nozzles and pop tested the set and boosted the pressures to 2100 psi by adding shims, to the high end of factory specs (135-145 bar). These nozzles make a much better looking spray pattern. I tested using a V80/D20 (winter diesel) blend, which gives viscosity close to the 170F temperature VO I will be running on mostly.

A very easy job, one I highly recommend to anyone! Got the new nozzles and shims from https://mercedessource.com/catalog for $21 each. They said these nozzles were much better for VO use, and now I believe them!

You can take your injectors to a diesel injection shop and get this same service (except for the testing using a VO blend.) But most of them use the poor Bosch India nozzles, you should get Monark.

Note these pressures are for a turbo model, for non-turbo models its lower pressure, 115-125bar if I remember right.

Here is the tester I made from parts I bought used on ebay (like a portapower), a 3000psi guage, an injector line for free from a junkyard, and a clear salsa jar it sprays into:
Image
Last edited by SunWizard on Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby David » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:20 pm

Hello Sun,
I spotted those nozzles on Mercedes source and was intending to get some but was procrastinating over the testing and pressure setting. I have read some articles saying you can screw the new nozzles straight on without setting them but was thinking this would be like adding performance mod to an engine and then driving round with the handbrake permanently on.

Someone I know recently did their nozzles but used the bosch ones ( no doubt made in india) and didn't set them. Unsurprisingly he has said he didn't get much improvement with the new ones.

Soory for the questions but there are a few things I am interested t know:

Did you find the pressure setting to be very difficult or time consuming?
Did you need many shims or a great variety to get the pressures right.
Does the viscosity of the fluid used affect the pop off pressures. if one mainly ran svo would it be best to set the nozzles using that and would the nozzles work different is set up by a shop that just used diesel?

Could you give some more description of how you made your tester and the fundamental principals behind it so one could understand what they needed if they couldn't find the same sort of pump you used.

I have also read about setting the pressures higher than factory spec for running veg. Has anyone heard or know anything about this?

Much as I hate safety warnings, I did read something a while back on injuries caused by High pressure injection of diesel through the skin.

Suffice to say if you get an injection injury, it is horrific, dire stuff and most likely a life altering thing.

It don't seem much, but what I saw scared the pants off me. I would suggest anyone doing this setting wear the thickest rubber gloves possible just in case. IF it wouldn't affect the settings too much, it may also be a wise and smart thing to use new veg oil instead of any relatively poisonous diesel blend as the testing fluid. I don't know, but maybe the veg would be less toxic if the worst were to happen?
As a safety warning hater, I would say a person needs to be bloody careful they don't get an injection wound and this is one thing people do absolutely need to be careful with and take precautions when doing it.

Thanks for the great info sun!
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:09 pm

David wrote:Someone I know recently did their nozzles but used the bosch ones ( no doubt made in india) and didn't set them. Unsurprisingly he has said he didn't get much improvement with the new ones.

Yes all the Bosch ones are now made in India, unless you can find someone who has very old rare stock made in Germany (stamped on the nozzles.)
Did you find the pressure setting to be very difficult or time consuming?

No, it took about an hour to test the 6 old nozzles, replace with new ones, which all tested at 2000psi, then open each one up and add a 0.10mm shim which raises the pressure 100psi, and test a 3rd time.
Did you need many shims or a great variety to get the pressures right.

1 shim per injector, yours may vary, I got their $40 kit with a variety of shims but only needed 1 size in each since mine were very consistent. This is another sign of very high quality manufacture of these nozzles.
Does the viscosity of the fluid used affect the pop off pressures. if one mainly ran svo would it be best to set the nozzles using that and would the nozzles work different is set up by a shop that just used diesel?

I didn't try pure diesel, that is something I will try next time I have some injectors off. I wanted to set them for WVO so only tested with that, and its safer as you note. It does affect the spray pattern, which is something important to look at and why I used a clear jar.
Could you give some more description of how you made your tester and the fundamental principals behind it so one could understand what they needed if they couldn't find the same sort of pump you used.

Its a hand hydraulic pump that can do 4000psi, some have used 2 ton bottle jacks for this, but that requires welding, and epoxy, and is subject to leaks which could be dangerous. Others have used grease guns, which don't pump near the volume this rig does, and many have failed with trying to make testers from those. Mine has no place to leak and worked easily, and required only a few plumbing fittings shown in the pics, since it already had a threaded inlet and outlet on the pump. The other nice thing this pump has a knob you can see on the right end of the pump which releases the pressure, making it safer when you unscrew the injector.

A search on mercedes or VW forums for pop tester will give you some threads about making one from a bottle jack. You just need to add a container for a reservoir, and a feed line from there to the pump (or a hose fitting epoxied into the jack fill hole) and then a tee (which is welded on top of a jack instead of the ram, the weld is a leak danger point), and a guage (3000 psi glycerine filled is best) and a 6mm compression fitting which hooks directly to a stock mercedes injector line.

Mercedes source sells a pop tester they make from a bottle jack for $179, and I think they sell a lot of them. I made a much better one for cheaper, but it took some engineering and 2 parts sources, ebay and mcmaster.
I have also read about setting the pressures higher than factory spec for running veg. Has anyone heard or know anything about this?

Yes this is one of the "secrets" of the Elsbett kit, and is why you must remove your injectors and send them to Germany. This is supposed to give better atomization, and my results show it does, and also that these Monark nozzles are just better for WVO. I went for the high end of the factory spec, which I think is about what Elsbett does. Any higher pressures and I think you need to re-time the IP, and some old IPs might not like (or might not be capable of) the extra work.
Much as I hate safety warnings, I did read something a while back on injuries caused by High pressure injection of diesel through the skin.

Yes thats 1 reason I didn't get into much details of making your own pop tester since if you do it wrong it can be dangerous. Breathing the fine diesel or even WVO fog they put out can't be healthy either, so thats another reason to have them spray into a sealed jar as I did. The hole I cut in the lid of the jar is just the right size to screw the injector threads into.

More tech info on why the Monark nozzles are better, they don't have the tiny holes in the pintle like the Bosch ones, which tend to get clogged up even on diesel but especially on WVO. These have a flat cut pintle, which is another "secret" of the Elsbett kit. So they should give their improved performance for much longer than the Bosch. This car hadn't been run on WVO, and they were all clogged up. Unknown how many miles were on them. When those tiny holes get plugged, they no longer atomize and simply spray a stream. This is a very bad thing for many reasons: smoking, coking, harder starting, less power, less mileage.

Now I am firmly in the camp with many others who I have read recommending getting your injectors pop tested. But go beyond that, change to these new nozzles, which I haven't heard much about with respect to WVO use on the forums.
Last edited by SunWizard on Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby David » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:12 am

Thanks Sun,
Fantastic info as usual!
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Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
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Postby rkpatt » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:07 pm

Sunwizard - I just acquired my WVO candidate car ( a 1990 MB 300D) to go with my wVO powered 1994 F250 IDI . One of the injectors is having problems (sticking) and I would like to go through of them . Could your please post the source of the Bosch injector kit and and some dteails on your pop tester . - Thanks
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:35 pm

rkpatt wrote:Sunwizard - I just acquired my WVO candidate car ( a 1990 MB 300D) to go with my wVO powered 1994 F250 IDI . One of the injectors is having problems (sticking) and I would like to go through of them . Could your please post the source of the Bosch injector kit and and some dteails on your pop tester . - Thanks

The source is posted above:
SunWizard wrote:Got the new nozzles and shims from https://mercedessource.com/catalog for $21 each. They said these nozzles were much better for VO use, and now I believe them!

I listed all the details I can think of already so you need to ask something specific.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby rkpatt » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:01 am

Sunwizard - I guess that I was wondering about a Mcmaster parts list for the fittings you used . The portapower type hand hydraulic pump ( available at Northerntool $40-$70 ) sure does seem the easiest the way to go . - Thanks


Edit - link to a DIY injector pop tester thread at www.mercedeshop.com -
http://mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showt ... p?t=224334
Last edited by rkpatt on Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby SunWizard » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:52 am

rkpatt wrote:The portapower type hand hydraulic pump ( available at Northerntool $40-$70 ) sure does seem the easiest the way to go

How about a part# for those, I couldn't find them.

Here are the fittings I used:
5269K311 METRIC STEEL COMPRESSION TUBE FITTING, ADAPTER FOR 6 MM TUBE OD X 1/8" NPT MALE PIPE 3.47
50925K343 COMPACT EXTREME-PRESSURE STEEL THRD FITTING, 3/8"MALE X 1/8"FEM PIPE, HEX HEAD BUSHING,6000 PSI 1.53
3845K23 GLYCERIN-FILLED GAUGE - 1% MID-SCALE ACCURACY, 2-1/2" DIAL, 1/4" BOTTOM, 0 - 3000 PSI 18.49
50925K345 COMPACT EXTREME-PRESSURE STEEL THRD FITTING, 3/8"MALE X 1/4"FEM PIPE,HEX HEAD BUSHING, 6000 PSI 1.30
50925K198 COMPACT EXTREME-PRESSURE STEEL THRD FITTING, 3/8" PIPE, FEMALE X FEMALE X MALE TEE, 4500 PSI 7.11
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Posts: 1723
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Postby rkpatt » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:41 pm

Sunwizard - Thanks for the parts list-

The available pumps at Northern tool :

Torin Big Red Hydraulic Ram Pump —
10-Ton Capacity, Model# T71101, item# 144429 , $39.99

Northern Industrial Hydraulic Foot/Hand Pump With Hose - item #144990 , $69.99

Sometimes they have a coupon or put these on sale .

Sometimes Harborfreight has these sets on sale but they were not stocked at my local HF B&M the last time I want to buy one -

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=44899



SunWizard wrote:
rkpatt wrote:The portapower type hand hydraulic pump ( available at Northerntool $40-$70 ) sure does seem the easiest the way to go

How about a part# for those, I couldn't find them.

Here are the fittings I used:
5269K311 METRIC STEEL COMPRESSION TUBE FITTING, ADAPTER FOR 6 MM TUBE OD X 1/8" NPT MALE PIPE 3.47
50925K343 COMPACT EXTREME-PRESSURE STEEL THRD FITTING, 3/8"MALE X 1/8"FEM PIPE, HEX HEAD BUSHING,6000 PSI 1.53
3845K23 GLYCERIN-FILLED GAUGE - 1% MID-SCALE ACCURACY, 2-1/2" DIAL, 1/4" BOTTOM, 0 - 3000 PSI 18.49
50925K345 COMPACT EXTREME-PRESSURE STEEL THRD FITTING, 3/8"MALE X 1/4"FEM PIPE,HEX HEAD BUSHING, 6000 PSI 1.30
50925K198 COMPACT EXTREME-PRESSURE STEEL THRD FITTING, 3/8" PIPE, FEMALE X FEMALE X MALE TEE, 4500 PSI 7.11
rkpatt
 
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Postby jburke » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:59 am

"Yes this is one of the "secrets" of the Elsbett kit,"

Hi Sun,

Thanks for posting a nice detailed pop tester report.
Actually, Elsbett sets the pop off pressure to factory spec.s' on mid 80's M-B.'s. I've done two of them this way. Factory pressure, +/- 0.5 bar.

The real "secret" which you "discovered" is to rebuild the injectors
with new nozzles. This will give the most significant improvement, more than any other fine tuning. All SVO'ers should rebuild their injectors BEFORE running any veg.
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also just replaced nozzles!

Postby christopher t » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:51 pm

Hey there Sun and others.
We just replaced our injector nozzles with the Monarks. There is a very noticeable difference, both in power and noise reduction. A highly recommended upgrade/ maintenance. Well worth the minimal expense!
-christopher
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Postby rkpatt » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:55 am

Did any of you that installed the Monark nozzles find the pop pressure close enough to spec with the original spring / shim configuration (didn't change shims) ? I plan to pop est them before I install tehm but just wondered how much an injector that had a good pop pressure with the original nozzle would change with with the Monark nozzle .- Thanks
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:43 am

My nozzles were 1900, lower than spec pressure before the monark nozzles, and the new nozzles raised it slightly to 1960, the bottom end of spec. Its best to shim them to 2100, the high end of spec, since they will drop a good amount after a few hundred miles.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Postby David » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:33 pm

SunWizard wrote:Its best to shim them to 2100, the high end of spec, since they will drop a good amount after a few hundred miles.


If they do drop pressure that quick, would it not be better to set them over spec so they drop back into the upper end of the correct range?

Even if they were still high, wouldn't that be an advantage with veg anyway?
_____________________

I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.
David
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Postby green bus » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:42 pm

Can anyone help a newbie out with info on options for the 7.3 IDI with this stuff?

I haven't run VO yet and am installing a new IP and injector nozzles very soon. I'm planning on having them balanced and shimmed at a shop, because I know my limits for now...but I'm convinced of the necessity and this post has great info.

I just bought Delphi injectors from Pensacola Diesel.

Is there a source for Ford/IH nozzles best suited for VO, like the Monark?
'89 7.3L IDI in a Blue Bird short bus

VO system: 25gal plastic tank > heated pickup > Webb 525 coolant-heated 30 u pre-filter > aluminum TIH > manual valves > Walbro FRB-13 > 2u coolant-heated filter > 30 pl FPHE > IP
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