Homebrew capacitive water in oil % saturated meter testing

Collecting, filtering and dewatering of WVO SVO vegetable oil. For Biodiesel producers too.

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Postby HoldOnTight » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:53 am

SunWizard wrote:anyone with a CF should make one, its great, much better than sandy brae!

Image


3 points:

It's cheaper than SB.
It's more convenient.
There are no consumable (chemicals) costs.

Beat that!
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:57 am

An interesting thing I am seeing is that the WVO near the top of settled barrels has higher dissolved water than deeper. Its small but significant difference in some barrels, especially my high FFA one, for example 348pF top (62% sat), 342pF at 3/4 down (51%). This matches what I have read about humidity in air rising, but I didn't think it would occur in WVO.

I take deep samples by putting my finger over a 3/8" aluminum tube, dipping to the desired depth, take my finger off which sucks up a sample, then put my finger back on, remove the tube, then release it into a small jar for testing. I will do more testing of this.
Last edited by SunWizard on Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby HoldOnTight » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:14 am

SunWizard wrote:An interesting thing I am seeing is that the WVO near the top of settled barrels has higher dissolved water than deeper. I take deep samples by putting my finger over a 3/8" aluminum tube, dipping to the desired depth, take my finger off which sucks up a sample, then put my finger back on, remove the tube, then release it into a small jar for testing. I will do more testing of this.


Sun, . Can you also test for FFAs?

May be the higher FFA is at the top of the barrels.

Also, can you comment on the temperature change where the oil is stored.

FFAs may be residing at the top of the barrel along with the dissolved water. FFAs attached to water (ionic attraction) may be lighter than triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides. I don't have a Chemistry periodic table handy or time right now, but it shouldn't take much effort to verify the weights of these molecules.

With all your testing, as of late, you'll have all this stuff demystified in short order, with data to back it up!

Keep it up!
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:38 am

HoldOnTight wrote:May be the higher FFA is at the top of the barrels.

The FFA is the same.
Also, can you comment on the temperature change where the oil is stored.

There could be a temp effect, since this blue poly barrel is in the sun. It makes sense that RH in the headspace would rise at night (cooler) then drop during the day (hotter.) And the headspace humidity slowly migrates into the WVO humidity. I measured in the morning. I will try those barrels again late in the day.
FFAs may be residing at the top of the barrel along with the dissolved water. FFAs attached to water (ionic attraction) may be lighter than triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides.

From others who have done this testing, they reported higher FFA the lower you go in a barrel. These barrels have enough FFA at all levels to hold lots of water dissolved as shown in the science project thread.

Its interesting, since its not what I expected. I expected higher dissolved water the lower you go, since suspended water settles. But, all of my stored barrels have no suspended water, only dissolved, which appears to act differently.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:36 pm

SunWizard wrote:There could be a temp effect, since this blue poly barrel is in the sun. It makes sense that RH in the headspace would rise at night (cooler) then drop during the day (hotter.) And the headspace humidity slowly migrates into the WVO humidity. I measured in the morning. I will try those barrels again late in the day.

I measured it late in the day at 340 pF, and this confirms this is a temp effect changing the WVO at the surface few inches. Its nice having such a simple water measurement tool to discover new things like this effect. For a barrel in the sun, the time of day will have an effect on your readings, unless you take the sample from lower in the barrel.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby HoldOnTight » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:42 pm

Sunwizard,
Taking a measurement of a barrel in sun is definitely relevant if you are checking oil at the restaurant. I keep my oil out of the sun when stored, or awaiting processing.

It is good to know that the device is so sensitive, but that means precautions are in order. Sampling below the surface is the proper protocol. I agree the humidity of the headspace would seek to match that of the oil during temperature fluctuations.

Everyone seems to focus on warming oil to separate oil and water, but since dissolved water in oil is so much like humidity in air, maybe it would be easier and better to cool the oil. If a barrel of oil is cooled, with the dissolved water form a thicker layer at the bottom, like a fog, and possibly coagulate and drop out? I seem to recall someone posting that their oil was exposed to freezing temperatures and the oil near the top was dry afterward.

Lots of theories and anecdotal evidence that can be verified with this device...

Cheeers!
Late 99 Ford F-250, Designed and installed at home, 30 kMi on VO. WVO temp at solenoid valve is 185-195+F, winter-summer.
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Postby SunWizard » Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:01 pm

Here is another set of interesting data I got with this device. The samples were first tested at room temp 64F, then chilled in a sealed jar to 30F and tested, then heated while sealed to 98F and 140F and tested again. I kept the jars sealed since putting them in the freezer would otherwise have gained water, and likewise while heating if they weren't sealed they would have lost some water. I temperature compensated the readings using my Capacitive water in oil meter Percent saturated calculator

Image

This testing tells me that I always want to get well below 70% saturation when running my centrifuge at 160F, or doing heated settling, since at that level it would be close to 100% saturated at 30F. Sample AD gained 21.7% and C gained 23.7% from the cool down. The slope of the line is ~ 4 F / % saturated.

Note that testing samples with my sandy brae would not be of any use since they would measure the same PPM no matter the temp. And the HPT doesn't tell me anything about this either since all the samples would pass the HPT with no bubbles at all temps. This was one of the reasons I did all this testing of different water measuring methods: to find a better test than the HPT, since I always got to 0 bubbles on every batch.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:04 pm

I did another 45 gallon batch with my centrifuge today, FFA=1%, some PHO so it was cloudy looking, here are the results, start and endpoints measured with SB:
Image
Interesting how it leveled off after 3 hours and the 4th hour didn't change the water amount. One thing I wonder and will test someday is whether it levels off at a different % saturation depending on the ambient air humidity.

This batch had been settled for ~4 months. I am seeing a pattern in my settled but not dewatered batches (6 tested so far) that they are all around 70% saturated. Except 1 batch that I know has some free water on the bottom, and its staying near 100% saturated even after 1 month settling in a cone bottom tank and draining a little off the bottom every week.

Comparing it to the higher FFA batch I showed on the chart at the top of this page, it dewatered quicker, which is what I would expect from a lower FFA batch.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Bones » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:44 pm

I'll probably get shot for posting this but it was just a thought,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-BIA-Skin-Anal ... 3915wt_905

Any good?

Sun, what sort of cost are those commercial testers if you happen to know?

Do you have a link for the meter used, sorry but this is not my area at all.

<img src="http://www.burnveg.com/forum/userpix/2_cwsmeter2_1.jpg">
David

1994 Merc C250D -110k dino, 22k miles with t/tank - now on wvo
1998 Merc 300TD - 89k dino, 5k blend SVO garaged for winter

And remember ~

"if you drive a car fast enough it will last you a lifetime"
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Postby SunWizard » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:57 pm

Bones wrote:Any good?

I don't know since I never felt a need to analyze my skin moisture content. No good for much else.
Sun, what sort of cost are those commercial testers if you happen to know?

This one from post#1?
"gives data similar to a $3000 unit like the Eesiflo Online Water in oil Monitor
The others are all expensive too.
Do you have a link for the meter used, sorry but this is not my area at all.

From post#1:
I got a high accuracy (0.5%) capacitance meter (ebay Protek CM109 $45)
They still have them on ebay.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby Bones » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:42 am

Thanks for the reply SW.
David

1994 Merc C250D -110k dino, 22k miles with t/tank - now on wvo
1998 Merc 300TD - 89k dino, 5k blend SVO garaged for winter

And remember ~

"if you drive a car fast enough it will last you a lifetime"
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Location: UK

Re: Homebrew capacitive water in oil % saturated meter testi

Postby drumdial » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:37 pm

SunWizard, just to be clear on the zeroing of the cap (311 pf). You tested your dried oil sample as 311pf? Or, did you zero only via the data sheet. My data sheet is also 311 pf, but my dried sample reads 295 pf.

Thanks!
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Re: Homebrew capacitive water in oil % saturated meter testi

Postby SunWizard » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:23 pm

drumdial wrote:SunWizard, just to be clear on the zeroing of the cap (311 pf). You tested your dried oil sample as 311pf? Or, did you zero only via the data sheet. My data sheet is also 311 pf, but my dried sample reads 295 pf.

Hi and welcome to the forum. I computed the zero after drawing the chart on my 1st post, and multiple samples lines intercepted at 311. See the 4th post in the thread for calibration, where I copied this from:
Calibration for % saturated
According to the data sheet, each sensor chip can vary in the pF reading at 0 % which for mine is the 311 number. Yours may be different, and you can find that number by testing several samples (low and higher water content) drawing a chart like I have to find where the line intercepts the Y axis. Then use that number in the above formula or on the % saturated calculator page.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Re: Homebrew capacitive water in oil % saturated meter testi

Postby John Galt » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:41 am

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Re: Homebrew capacitive water in oil % saturated meter testi

Postby sooty » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:26 pm

Sunwiz,
I have calibrated my cap meter to dry and 2000ppm 0% FFA oil and made my graph to determine 0% intercept. Mine is 304.7 @ 68 (I calculated this from the formula because tests were done at a lower temp)
Do I still need separate graphs for increasing % of FFAs?
Have you heard from others if their chips follow similar slope increases as yours did for increasing FFA's?

I am making biodiesel and I know drier is better. I wanted to be able to compare water content results with those who are reporting ppm in their feedstock.
It works with biodiesel, that is to say it doesn't self destruct. However I tried it in methanol and it went crazy! the methanol molecule must be small enough to mimic water? I didn't leave it in long and it seemed to recover.
Thanks for the design.
jim
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